Is The Marriage Of Scarlett Johansson And Ryan Reynolds Failing?

@pony_express: Note that I only referred to the removal of the clitoral hood (which is homologous to the foreskin), not the clitoris (homologous to the glans). Orgasm is still possible, the analogy works.

DeltaGuy

@skahammer: It's obvious we're never going to agree on the definition of mutilation, which is fully acceptable, and tangent to my main argument.

Comparing condom use to AIDS vaccine development is an unfair comparison, as a condom protects against many more STIs than simply AIDS, and supporting the development of a vaccine is quite different than the actual administration of a vaccine.

The health benefits of circumcision are inconclusive, as are the sexual benefits of foreskin (an intactivist argument that I find wholly silly, as in my experience uncut and cut men tend to enjoy sex). I believe neither argument presents a compelling case to either defend or attack the practice.

And this is essentially the crux of my argument, which brings me back to my first comment on the subject. I consider the practice unnecessary, and see no compelling or valid reason why routine infant circumcision should be practiced.

Stating that there is, in your opinion, limited risk following the procedure is different than providing a compelling case for why the procedure should be carried out. My understanding of the reasons is absurdly narrow because I know no reason.

The Penn & Teller episode is available here:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=416_1218124584

DeltaGuy

@DeltaGuy:
Circumcised men can still have orgasms, a woman whose clitoris has been removed cannot; therefore, your analogy is grossly wrong.

pony_express

@FormerEnglishMajor: Without- but I am a germphobe who doesn't trust that everyone scrubs themselves as meticulously clean as they should, especially the mens.

pony_express

@Taigan: Sorry, I clumsily referred to DeltaGuy's use of the word "mutilation" in my response to you. That was a mistake.

Your point about barn doors and horses stands. I suggest only that having two kids go through the procedure (for whatever reasons) still doesn't disqualify one from raising useful questions about it. In fact it's not that inconceivable to me that it might make you more qualified, at least regarding personal experience.

@DeltaGuy: Now, it basically persists as routine surgery because American mothers think it looks pretty, and American fathers don't want their sons to be laughed at in the locker room.

Let me suggest that your understanding of the reasons why people get cut is absurdly narrow and undermines a lot of the good arguments you're making.

Nevertheless I think we can both agree that what matters here is ensuring that parents have enough good information to judge the risks and benefits of the procedure rationally. Doubtless some parents could benefit from having some of the insights about the procedure that you've described.

But included among those risks is the one I mentioned above: What if the parents opt for the knife and the son later resents it? Certainly that's a different situation than a son who resents not being cut -- since he can always opt for the procedure himself.

My only offering here is that this risk is probably pretty low: In my view, being cut seems quite easy to accept and is actually pretty swell -- much easier to adjust to than a hundred other more permanent conditions, like being short or nearsighted or having flat feet or an overactive blush response. I suggest that calling it a "mutilation" just drains meaning out of that very powerful and useful word.

And the fact that the health benefits of circumcision can be reproduced by the use of condoms doesn't mean those benefits don't still have value. For instance, I consider developing a vaccine for AIDS to be a similarly worthwhile endeavor, even alongside promoting the use of condoms.

You make good arguments, but when you describe as "mutilation" a procedure I'm thankful to have had and glad I didn't have to face at age 12 or whenever, you're describing something other than the very real and common effects of circumcision that I'm familiar with.

@goetz: I'd take Nathan Fillion any day.

you_will_submit_to_the_decoupage

@skahammer: I've never referred to circumcision as mutilation. I've never given it a great deal of thought, as it's not something that could be done to me, and I don't have any children. It just seems pretty horrible that somebody who offered up two other humans for the practice has now decided that maybe it's not so okay.

Barn door. Horse. You know.

@skahammer: I do prefer the vaccination analogy, except a vaccination does have medical benefits that cannot be vastly outweighed by wearing a condom.

I recommend the Penn & Teller episode as it explores the social pressures behind circumcision which, when you actually decontextualize them, are truly inane.

Its widespread adoption in English-speaking countries for non-religious reasons was to "cure" such problems as asthma, epilepsy, bedwetting, and hernias. After being shown to be slightly less effective than a good old-fashioned blood-letting, the inventor of Corn Flakes at the turn of the 20th century decided it would be a great way to prevent masturbation.

Now, it basically persists as routine surgery because American mothers think it looks pretty, and American fathers don't want their sons to be laughed at in the locker room.

In other modern, western countries, it only took one generation of uncircumcised children for the entire stigmas and social pressures to die out, although these decreased rates of circumcision were generally due to public health care systems no longer covering the cost of the procedure. In America, the change will take longer.

DeltaGuy

@FormerEnglishMajor: I accept both of your pieces of evidence, but draw entirely different conclusions based on them.

Yes, it is an accepted fact that circumcision decreases the risk of AIDS infection by approximately 50%. Do you like those odds? Personally, I think parents deciding to teach their children to practice safe sex is a much better alternative. This isn't the third-world, condoms are free and plentiful.

Regarding the washing, this is most likely a social issue. Circumcised fathers are not properly teaching their uncut sons how to wash themselves, and people just aren't forcing their partners to clean themselves. It shouldn't be this hard to ask a guy to play with his dick in the shower.

As a female, though, how would you react if a man said he preferred having sex with women who had their clitoral hoods removed? I can already hear the angry throng of Jezebelites.

Women in every other developed, western nation have somehow been able to cope with the horrors of a real penis. This is America. Your women can survive.

DeltaGuy

@Wendy_Kroy: They should sell lottery tickets where the prize is Ryan Reynolds because I would go broke, but probably not before my grandma did.

ampersandparade

I mean seriously people, if you're that fucking famous why get married? I don't get it.

dirtyperty

@BadUncle: No. Better than spending her birthday with the stars of "Spice World" and "Over Her Dead Body."

NigelAstydameia

I can never see Ryan Reynolds as anyone other than little Billy from the old Nickelodean teen soap "Fifteen." Anyone else remember him there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSUv2xldR4g

RoyJagabat

@DahlELama: I was wondering the same thing! What's Marilyn mad about? No one's talked about that has-been for years (except to rag on him for dating an infant [Evan Rachel]).

@Taigan: "Wow, Chabon, nice of you to decide that circumcision is NOT okay after your two sons underwent the procedure."

Exactly what I was thinking, though for a different reason. Though I don't agree with the arguments against circumcision, I certainly understand them. However, the bris is a huge part of Judaism, and one I know I would not be able to forgo for my own sons. As much as we Jews--and all other religious groups, really--"pick and choose," circumcision is pretty non-negotiable. Lecturing the rest of us on its evils and decrying it as unacceptable after you've put not one but two sons through it is incredibly unfair. His boys aren't twins; he had six years after the birth of his first son to take a stand and say that if he had another boy, he would not circumcise him. But there's no way in hell he would ever do that, so he gets to come off as enlightened while the rest of us who will continue to do it become inhumane assholes.

DahlELama

@DeltaGuy: let's be real, here, it's the foreskin, you aren't castrating the child. I'm sure it's more tradition than anything else for many, but there are numerous, numerous studies saying that it reduces your chance of STDs, AIDS (e.g. - stuff "washing your penis" doesn't help with). And let's face it - most boys/young men don't keep that shit clean. I've been with a couple of the unclipped goyim and - professional guys, knew how to bathe, etc. - there was some serious "not so fresh" stuff going on.

As a female (and I'd love to know if any other penis-preferring people feel differently) - the whole experience either orally or - uh - more - is better without the mudflap.

@DeltaGuy: But babies typically aren't provided a choice whether to undergo any medical procedure.

I suggest that the real issue isn't about the child's choice, but about whether the parents are properly prepared to make that choice by weighing the benefits and risks -- similar to vaccination, if you don't like the ear-piercing comparison. Calling the act "mutilation" is kind of drawing your conclusion before analyzing the actual issue involved.

Now, one of the risks is that a cut adult will wish he hadn't been knifed. I offer my own experience with that risk, which I would describe as negligible. Being cut is just fine for me. As long as one's unit possesses other desirable and generally common qualities, I suggest one can be pretty happy with it whether cut or uncut.

I will seek out the Penn & Teller episode you suggest. I'll bet I would find it interesting.

The sad thing is, whenever I see a report about a hot famous dude on the verge of being single, I'm like, "cool, he's back on the market again!" As if some part of my brain genuinely believes that, now that he's unattached, he's gonna ask for my number. Presumably this is the same part of my brain that convinces me to buy lottery tickets.

Adults shouldn't marry children.

LVP

Scarjo and Rey-Rey on the rocks? I guess that means everyone who guessed last week's blind item was her Justin Long cheating during "She's Just Not Into You" might have been on to something, eh?

VidetteNootrac

@FormerEnglishMajor: I also find it disturbing that people would do that to their babies. Even so, it's not like they're cutting off their clits or dicks.

DeltaGuy

@DeltaGuy: Plenty of girl babies have their ears pierced - including La Lopez'.

I take full responsibility for the Reynolds/Johansson breakup. She walked in on us when we were playing Deadpool & Wolverine Cross Swords.

secretagentman

@DeltaGuy: By the same token, when we goyim have it done, it confuses the Nazis. And anything that confuses the Nazis is a good thing.

@NigelAstydameia: Than the star of Waiting??

@goetz: Obviously you've never seen Blade: Trinity.

@skahammer: There's a great Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on the subject if you'd like to ponder Chabon's question further (and I say this, despite a mild distaste for everything that is Penn Jillette).

Mutilation is the only term which can accurately describe an act done against an unwilling participant. People get to decide if they want to have their ears (or anything else) pierced. The babies undergoing routine infant circumcision aren't really provided that choice.

I'd be willing to change my admittedly strong opinions on this subject if anyone is able to provide me with any proof that the procedure is somehow safer than washing your dick and wearing a condom.

DeltaGuy

@HipHopopotamus: Nothing grieves me more heartily than that I cannot unsee Van Wilder.

goetz

@DeltaGuy: Bradley Cooper?? No way, you guys can't have him. He's ours, we need him!!!!!!!!

@goetz: Obviously you've never seen Van Wilder.

@DahlELama:

Hmmm... well "Raphael" is "God-healed," which is like "well-healed," in the sense of "heels well-rounded," so, yes, maybe since alcohol and round heels go well together.

@Taigan: Well, it's not really that bad being cut. (I like to think it's consistent with the personality of a "straight-shooter.") So calling it "mutilation" seems a bit strong...unless you think ear-piercing also rises to the level of mutilation.

But still, Chabon phrases the question in an interesting way and it's worth pondering.

@Better to Eat You With: The beach?

@Island of Misfit Toys: 13-year-olds and their predators.

@Better to Eat You With: I have managed to avoid dating fellow librarians for this long, and I still have things to talk about with my mens. Plus, there are lots of celebrities who are married to/involved with non-celebrities, so I'm more inclined to believe that those who can't converse with the normals are most likely lacking in imagination or intelligence.

Wow, Chabon, nice of you to decide that circumcision is NOT okay after your two sons underwent the procedure. You do understand "No backsies," right?

As if those kids didn't have it rough enough already.

Kate Beckinsale could do better.

NigelAstydameia

What journalists are still talking about Marilyn Manson? Not that I'm suggesting they return to 24/7 MJ coverage, but I'm pretty sure there's something in between.

DahlELama

@Uncle_Billy_Slumming: Yes, "Bar" means "son of" in Aramaic, but in Hebrew, it straight up means "bar." Perhaps G'veret Refaeli was just celebrating the fact that she could finally drink again.

DahlELama

@DeltaGuy: Honestly, it seems more and more likely that you aren't getting your hopes up for nothing. I think both of them are big gays, and I for one couldn't be happier (unless they came out and moved to New York).

@Island of Misfit Toys: I think that was obvious well before these photo ops.

DahlELama

@Island of Misfit Toys: It's a nice idea, but what the hell would they talk about?

@ObtuseGoose: Stop. Fucking. Getting. My. Hopes. Up. For. Nothing!

As much as I would love to believe that Bradley Cooper and Ryan Reynolds were/are both part of sham marriages that fell apart, they are most likely just straight guys who are total douche bags and fucked around.

DeltaGuy

@dado: All I really want to do after reading this story is take him in my arms and console him... and maybe stroke his rock-hard abs.

dizzygal

@rcdl: Don't be ridiculous. R. Kelly also uses MySpace.

Island of Misfit Toys

@DeltaGuy: But is he desperate to settle down with anyone or does it have to be a celebrity? Some celebs seem to only date in their celeb caste. I think Jen Aniston is like that, and surprise, surprise...she has difficulty finding someone. Maybe try a beautiful, successful marine biologist?

Island of Misfit Toys

Ryan marries a 'beard', then people are shocked when it actually starts to fall apart? Speaking of beards... his looks great.

There's just no way it can be a good idea for Mischa Barton to be doing photo ops and working so soon after a nervous breakdown. Obviously nobody advising her gives a crap about her.

Island of Misfit Toys

I totally forgot that Scarjo and Ryan R. were even married.

What were Bar Rafaeli's parents thinking? "Bar" means "son of." Why not "Pud" Rafaeli? "Shlong" Rafaeli? "Testes"?

For a beautiful man who seems desperate to settle down with someone, Ryan can't seem to catch a break, although his choices have been somewhat suspicious. Did he really expect Scarlett "Monogamy is Unnatural" Johansson, or Alanis Fucking Morissette to be prime marriage material?

DeltaGuy

@Bellyboop: Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

Grandma Death

Didn't Ryan soon hook up with Scarlett not long after breaking up with Alanis? That sucks big time. Like, he was so broken up over the split that he had to rest his gorgeous weary face on Scar's boobs.

Now that Alanis is looking fit and fine after gaining some post break up Haagen Daz overdosing weight, let Reynolds do a little suffering. Karma baby. Karma.

Haven't heard much about Paris lately. It's time for the anal video.

@The Cajun Boy: He seems like he's got a chip on his shoulder...I still see him in the fat suit from "Just Friends" everytime I look at him.

Ry and ScarJo - Probably a continuing argument about who gets to use the mirror first. Hope it works out though, if not ScarJo, I'm in the book...

Martiniman

Now Ryan can return to his one true love, Miss Alanis Morrissette. I'm serious. They were my OTP.

juustuunder

Marilyn Manson still uses MySpace? I thought that was only reserved for 13 year old girls... oh wait.

I didn't notice Megan Fox's wit and so am spared the effort of shunning her.

@dado: Really? I happen to think that RyRey is DREAMY!

@FormerEnglishMajor: Not me. I'm fucking perfect!

I guess the glimmer of being with a star of Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pizza Place has finally worn off.

goetz

Aren't we ALL "self-depreciating" with the passage of time, O Cajun Boy?

Not a Ryan Reynolds fan. I equated his union with ScarJo to the Drew Barrymore / Tom Green headscratcher from days gone by.

The "all smiles" means the medication is working. Wish mine would do the same.

lionboy