Is Date Rape Funny? Seth Rogen Explains It All For You
If you’re thinking about seeing the light-hearted Seth Rogen comedy Observe & Report, you may want to watch this R-rated trailer first…or maybe not.
You wouldn’t know it from watching the commercials playing constantly on TV, but in Observe & Report Ronnie (Seth Rogen) date rapes Brandi (Anna Faris) after taking her out to dinner, and today, bloggers are talking about it. This is how The New York Times review describes the scene, which you can watch in the final 20 seconds of the trailer above:
In another scene [Rogen] forces himself on a makeup-counter saleswoman after a date of heavy drinking and drug use. (Before the scene is over she indicates that she had given her consent.)
In the scene, Brandi has thrown up on herself and appears to be totally unconscious as Ronnie is pumping away on top of her. He stops for a second, and then she murmurs the line that The New York Times says indicates her consent, “Did I tell you to stop, motherfucker?” before passing out again.
Dan Kois writes on New York Magazine’s Vulture blog:
The movie doesn’t mitigate that sex scene at all. In fact, it makes it even more clear than the trailer does that when Brandi and Ronnie get home from dinner, she’s unbelievably trashed on antidepressants and tequila. Not only does she throw up all over the place, she can barely walk – and she certainly can’t give any kind of informed consent. She’s way too wasted for her yelling at Ronnie to mean anything.
What Kois doesn’t get is that it’s a dark comedy. People are so disturbed by rape that the fact that Brandi is too out of it to give any kind of consent is what makes the scene so hilarious. Anna Faris told New York Magazine, “It’s like date rape – that’s funny, right?” Seth Rogen agrees in this interview posted by the Washington City Paper. He says:
SETH ROGEN: When we’re having sex and she’s unconscious like you can literally feel the audience thinking, like, how the fuck are they going to make this okay? Like, what can possibly be said or done that I’m not going to walk out of the movie theatre in the next thirty seconds? . . . And then she says, like, the one thing that makes it all okay:
BRANDI: “Why are you stopping, motherfucker?”
Rogen explains that everyone in the theatre then lets out a good long chuckle. See, even though she’s probably blacked out and has no idea what she’s saying, it isn’t rape. (And Brandi’s kind of a dumb slut anyway.) In the beginning of the trailer, a flasher is exposing himself to women in the mall parking lot and it looks like he’s masturbating in front of Brandi. In this interview Anna Faris says:
It is the most traumatic event that’s ever happened to her, which is funny because I always imagined that she’s seen a bit of male anatomy and it wouldn’t normally scare her.
Women who have many sex partners obviously love penis, so they’d welcome a stranger jerking off in front of them on their way to work.
And if you aren’t already laughing at the idea of a pervert exposing himself to women and someone getting date raped, Shakesville points out that the film will be even more entertaining for women with history of sexual assault. Sady writes:
“The incredible frequency of rape and sexual assault in our society means that many, many victims of rape will see [the movie], and the PTSD that often accompanies rape will mean that, for a joke, for some dipshit filmmaker’s attempt at being edgy, they are going to experience all of the pain and psychological trauma associated with that experience, they are going to feel that rape all over again, there, in their seats, in the theatre, and they are going to pay for the experience, and if they try to talk about what that filmmaker did to them it’s probably going to get sidetracked into some conversation about the Sanctity of Art which is invariably given more consideration than their actual lives.”
An Auteur of Awkward Strikes Again [The New York Times]
Does Seth Rogen Rape Anna Faris in Observe & Report? [New York Magazine]
Observe and Report’s Date Rape Apologism [Washington City Paper]
Quote of the Day [Shakesville]
Comments (AU Comments | US Comments)
@MizJenkins: I'm Indian and I consider the past few years to be a golden age for Indian actors. We're getting bit parts all over the place now! Seriously, it makes me happy because I compare it to having been 100% invisible and having kids at school demand to know if I was black or white.
I saw that Margaret Cho stand-up where she mentioned wanting to be an extra on MASH when she grew up 'cause they were the only people who looked like her on tv. I was jealous.
@ArtfulSlinger: Yes. This is my point. This movie is NOT what people think it is. I'm not saying "yippee date rape = hilarity" but it's disingenuous to act like this is a lighthearted feel good romp with the good guy raping the girl and all is well. It's a fucking dark comedy. Really dark.
MyNameIsChris
href="#c11953608">ArtfulSlinger: As I said above, I haven't seen it and I could be wrong.
gold_gato
@RunningCori: He is?????? AND he's naked? Well damn. I will have to check it out. I guess since I didn't see him in the commercials I assumed incorrectly!
@baraqiel: Exactly. Because it's not about the wimmenz at all-they're an afterthought to Apatow's neanderthal male bonding story. No surprise they've moved on to grosser and more indefensible things. Get ready for crowds of morons telling you how it's the funniest movie of the year.
Hooplehead
@Mireillepa the Rappa: Ah, if you like Kevin Smith and Jason Mewes, you should definitely see it. It's pro-feminist and pro-healthy sex (IMO) and the best movie that Seth Rogen, Elizabeth Banks or -- hell -- Kevin Smith have ever done (also IMO).
zegota
@LVA83: That's what it looks like. They'll probably end up as a happy couple. Barf.
@gold_gato: Have you seen the film? They are calling it "Taxi Driver" light, which seems pretty dark to me.
@acookieaday: This isn't done by Apatow. This is another director, who is actually all about making his audience uncomfortable.
I dont want to be like some sort of defender in this and its everyone's right to be offended by something, but if you are going to tear something down it might make sense to actually see it first.
@MizJenkins: In a sense a penis is just an arrangement of cells, sure. In terms of the dominant cultural narrative, though, male sexuality has an element of being threatening to women. A significant percentage of women have been raped, assaulted, coerced into sex, sexually harassed by men. Women that have not been victimized know that they could be. Men have more physical and social power. All of this is at work when a man flashes women. It's a display of power, like showing that he has a weapon that he may or may not choose to use on you.
@MizJenkins: I tend to agree, and to add to your second point, I do not believe Rogen's character in the movie is supposed to be sweet. I believe he's supposed to be rather deranged. I've also heard that he's a bipolar who's gone off medication and is basically going insane. THAT is offensive in and of itself, but I think it's a mistake to assume this film is, in tone, is like any other cuddly Apatow type comedy. It's supposedly REALLY fucked up on all fronts.
MyNameIsChris
@acookieaday: Yeah I am curious how this ends. Maybe if he faced some reprecussions from his actions it would be okay but she'll probably end up with him at the end of the movie. Ugh.
This is a super dark comedy, which is obviously promoted differently than it should have been, but thats not Hill nor Rogen's fault. Look at the promotion of "Adventureland", which is nowhere near the light hearted romp the commercials are selling it as.
This is a weird conversation here, because from Faris' interview and what else I have read about the plot, her character is very aware that she will be sleeping with him later, which is why she basically drugs herself before. I am just not a fan of the chorus of bashing on something when most of us havent even seen it, nor ever planned on viewing it.
@MizJenkins: ...and I should say, humor aside it's the fact that they play up the putz-with-a-heart of gold part that makes it dangerous IRL. Dark humor is well and good, but that subtext of "He's so sweet even though he's a rapist" is actually disturbing because people by into that shit.
MizJenkins
@Mireillepa the Rappa: But he is in it! Also, he's naked if that makes any difference to you.
[www.imdb.com]
RunningCori
Frankly I'm more pissed that the Asian dudes are once again portrayed as doughy, bespectacled nerd-sidekicks.
MizJenkins
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Yeah, I think it's kind of funny...although I'd be happier if there were more depictions of date rape that made the guy look like a fratty douchebag trying to paw up on a normal, happens-to-be-pretty girl instead of making the girl a drunken slut and the guy a putz-with-a-heart of gold. I don't think this is egregious but it certainly feeds into the misogynistic meme.
MizJenkins
@maude_flanders: David Hayter's letter really bothered me. I really enjoyed Watchmen (graphic novel and film), but that "coming back" line wasn't necessary. Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons definitely didn't present the assault as a good thing, and I think that Zack Snyder did a good job with conveying the gravity of the scene in the film.
Bottom line: People saw the movie because they wanted to, not because David Hayter put out a plea letter to fans.
(I hope that some day these kinds of jokes can become obsolete. There are enough funny things in the world. We don't have to focus on things that are hurtful to others for meaningless laughs.)
@thatsrealbutter: This is true, although I can never put my finger on why it's true.
@HanaMaru: Yeah, but why isn't my reaction amusement/indifference rather than nervousness and sometimes panic? It's just a penis.
Maybe because it triggers the fear that he will try to do something with it other than just show it to me...
MizJenkins
@vivianthelibrarian: Yes it's horribly ironic.
@HanaMaru: You are so getting friended for that, and for the Em post yesterday.
@Scoithniamh: This is similar to what I wrote below. I think it's precisely bad for normalizing something that is a trauma in real life. And Seth Rogen's quote does indicate that he doesn't know what rape is.
@sunburnedheart: Joking from the rape victim's POV is really different from the movie joke, which hinges on the woman being an unrapeable slut. I'm glad you're able to make jokes and not be silent. Most guys are unaware how many women they know have been raped.
@Eeva: Didn't the concept of a funny mall cop go out with the '80s anyway?
raineoffire
@Dreaming of Chocolate-Covered Bacon: The Office is (or used to be) great at making really poignant and uncomfortable commentary like that. Michael represents those who think sexual abuse and flashing has something to do with actual sex, or desire, instead of aggressive and sociopathic impulses for which sexual behavior is sometimes an arbitrary outlet.
raineoffire
@breezers: Considering how many men put fear of rape on par with fear that a fickle slut will change her mind and falsely accuse them of rape(in bizarro world where women are believed and justice is swift) I would say that no. They have no concept.
ya know.... I'm a person who cracks child molester jokes and has seen just about every dark comedy under the sun, and yet this made me cry. Clearly I won't be seeing this movie.
avocadosaredelicious
@mervbaby: Wanda Sykes on the removable vagina. That was funny.
Jenloveshercurves
@bloodflower: Me too.
To put it another way:
Giving a friend $10 to cover her lunch: great
Being held at gunpoint and being forced to hand over $10: bad
But I obviously love giving out money all the time, so what's the big deal if I get mugged?!
raineoffire
@RedVelvetCake: That was a great, eye-opening film.
@acookieaday: Yep. I know where you're coming from. It's hard for me to care because I'm not crazy about any of these movies, and this one seems particularly bad. But I'm not horribly offended either. I also don't really know how to react without seeing the movie... I don't trust marketing. Everything I've heard buzz wise about this film is that it's very fucked up and very dark - i.e. not the standard bro-comedy mixed with rom-com that Rogen has become known for. I don't even know if the audience is meant to empathize with the main character or be creeped out by him as well. He looks totally skeevy at all times, and his voice over in this trailer is ludicrously deranged a la The King Of Comedy. I have a hunch is character isn't somebody the audience is meant to empathize with, but this is conjecture. Now, I'm pretty fucking sure this isn't going to hold a candle to The King Of Comedy, but I'm still glad people are occasionally trying to make something completely out to lunch or pushing boundaries. I'm not going to hold it against them merely because they (presumably) failed. Maybe next time it will pan out better.
MyNameIsChris
This reminds me of yesterday's Eminem discussion(which I consider thoroughly hashed out at this point) There are folks who say "It's presented as funny so it's not reasonable to treat it as serious", while I think it's actually worse when a joke works on misogynistic values. This shit affects us. It affects how we treat rape victims. It encourages the mindset of opportunistic rapist men.
@trianaorpheus: Did you know they moved out of the building they feature in the documentary? I used to live a few blocks away from it, and I drove by one day after seeing "This Film Has Not Been Rated" and it had a big ol' FOR RENT sign, and all of the tiny movie mosaics had been scraped off.
What the fuck?
A lot of horrible, twisted things can be used for humor. Sometimes they're funny. But this actually creeped me out just to read the description of the scene. Then the rest of the quotes... Agghh, just no.
Stagtasticfantastic
@IceCreamIsAwesome: It's sort of the difference between horrible, horrible movies like "Hostel" and desensitization to violence. I HOPE there are people who understand that people are tortured in the real world...maybe not at secret clubs for horny old assholes or wannabe vampire women, but human trafficking victims, violent crime victims, victims of political oppression...there's nothing "entertaining" about shit you can read about int he paper. Hell, one stylized torture popcorn flick they made in 2003, "Wolf Creek", was based on a horrible serial killer case that took nearly a decade to solve. Nothing entertaining for those families or the victims, who died horrible deaths.
How many people can appreciate the difference and the importance of that distinction? If they're seeing a movie about the case (using that as an example)...can they?
How many people can appreciate that acquaintance/date/marital rape is real and still laugh at this, without blowing off a real problem once the movie ends? (Probably people more than you...I hope.)
How many people who see this DON'T understand that in real life--if not on film, when an actress will slur, "Keep going, motherfucker"--date rape is a PROBLEM, not something you can blow off as a lie made up by fat, man-hating feminist harpies?
maude_flanders
@Eeva: At least Kevin James isn't a rapist!
Keep in mind that Seth Rogen co-wrote Superbad, where Michael Cera's character refuses to have sex with a girl he really likes because she's drunk. He may not have written that particular scene, but it's still an integral scene.
mharker
I was so ready to see this movie based on a description and the cast involved (and even some of the other trailers), but now I'm hesitant. Reading the interviews linked to above are in some ways worse than watching the red-band clip, because they're so indicative of how normalized anti-woman behavior is. Even Seth Rogen, who I've never before thought of as a dick, thinks that date rape jokes are totally hilarious. Does he not realize what rape is to a woman who's been through it? Or, jesus, just what rape is, period? Such a fundamental self- (read: male-) centeredness from someone who a, has a massive audience, and b, almost certainly does not consider himself misogynistic or sexist is so disheartening. It's everywhere and sometimes it makes me want to cry.
Scoithniamh
@Dreaming of Chocolate-Covered Bacon: Duh! That's because Phyllis is ugly! It's just weird when guys do it to an ugly woman!
Seriously though that episode cracked me up. Michael is insane.
@bloodflower: Great example. I think Heathers is one of my favorite movies and consider it a dark comedy. Because the humor comes from a really smart place as well as a really taboo one. In this case, because the jokes lack brains, it's not really dark humor. It's just kind of fratty.
But even if we do call it dark humor, it's still moronic, slow, unfunny and tired.
@bansaiiiiii: I know what you mean, but I just can't think of any examples of funny rape jokes. Murder is different because we're brought up on so much goofy violence and familiarity breeds humor.
mharker
@bansaiiiiii: Rape is different from other crimes. While yes, the end result of murder is death, and thus worse than rape, one eighth of the population is not murdered. One eighth of the US population is a survivor of sexual assault.
Furthermore. Rape is unique among crimes in the fact that there are so many stereotypes and misconceptions that are associated with it in our culture. No one says "she deserved to be killed, he's a slut." But slut-shaming is a constant discourse in our society, as are the myths that victims of rape "asked for it" or that women who attempt to prosecute their assaulters are making up their stories.
This is why jokes about rape and plot lines about rape stray into hazardous territory. They reinforce rape culture. There is no murder culture to reinforce.
@miss_so_unknown: oh wow. I just watched that. damn.
acrobatic rabbit
hmm......I hate the whole idea that forcing yourself on a woman is okay if she likes you, which is what most of the instances of this I see in tv/movies seem to be implying. ughhh. But I think sometimes rape jokes can be funny- I was raped and I like to make jokes about it sometimes, particularly in front of guys. Maybe I am just an evil bitch, but I kinda enjoy making people uncomfortable...
sunburnedheart
All I know is, this is by the guy who did Eastbound and Down, and that was a completely unfunny show, but if you did like it, you'd probably like this movie.
I also want to point out Rob Schneider's movie "Big Stan" revolves around male rape jokes but it was considered too dirty for the theaters and went straight to DVD. Make of that what you will.
mharker
@MyNameIsChris: I feel like this particular crew and their target audience are pretty clueless about date rape (as their audience likely contains the guys who do the raping part). I've seen too many of these guys try to sleep with girls wasted out of their minds to think they even have a real concept of date rape. From the trailer, it doesn't really look as if they're pushing the comfort level of their audience, so they're not giving it much of a shot. It feels like they're just putting out tired justifications that I've heard from frat guys in the service of mediocre comedy.
acookieaday
@LAkebandit: Is he even that talented? He's all over last month's Vanity Fair making the same face in every picture. Boring.
@bansaiiiiii: Jokes from the woman's POV, like Wanda Sykes' detachable vagina joke? Yes. Jokes by men, for men, where the punchline is that she's an unconscious drunk slut? Very bad.
Wow, I don't even want to touch on this.
i don't think most men will ever understand how traumatic it is to be a victim of sexual assault. it makes me want to tear my hair out.
breezers
@bansaiiiiii: there should be commas in that last sentence.
no, no, no, no,no. Sorry but my spidey senses tingle and that this movie is going to suck.
envirodesigner
I don't think that date rape can NEVER be funny. There are funny murder jokes, and go ahead and call me anti-woman, but murder really is worse than rape. Fargo, for instance is one long murder joke, and it's funny. This one is not particularly funny though. This whole movie just looks weirdly violent sexually and otherwise and not particularly funny.
@thatsrealbutter: Duh! Seeing the dick of the lover you chose=/= to random flasher assault.
@vivianthelibrarian: I could see that juxtaposition if they hadn't tried to make it okay with her in the moment comment. If the film really wanted to make a statement on date rape, they would have let it remain an uncomfortable moment instead of making it a joke.
acookieaday
@[pizzadiavola.wordpress.com]
-- basically, the premise is date-rape-y -- he wants to get a girl "drunk enough so she'll do" him.
@LisaMc: Fuck this shit.
@mervbaby: really? even heathers?
bloodflower
@RedVelvetCake: The whole premise of the movie was that a few guys were trying to get these girls drunk enough to agree to have sex with them. Drunk enough to consent is not consent at all, but people seemed to think that was super funny instead of super appalling.
@IceCreamIsAwesome: I love dark comedy but this trailer seems very misogynistic to me. And it was trying very hard to be offensive without the laughs to balance that out. At least to my funny bone.
@OwenKlient: Women are not in a baseline state of consenting to sex, Jesus. Men are not entitled to the use of women's bodies, barring an explicit statement of nonconsent. It's not that hard. If consent isn't given and if it isn't continuous, you should not begin or continue.
@LAkebandit: I know. He just got permanently banned from my cool list.
@OwenKlient: I feel pretty confident that once people are repeatedly vomiting on themselves, consent and judgment are questionable.
mbot
@OwenKlient: I don't know about the rest of the country, but Missouri uses what's called the "reasonable person" standard. Which is to say, if a sober person were to evaluate the drunk person, would they consider them enough in their right mind to give consent?
As for the level of alcohol it takes and the reaction, that's dependent on the person. And btw, it takes a lot more alcohol to get most people to the point where they throw up than to the point where they stop making rational decisions. Stumbling and throwing up are signs that the drunk person is very intoxicated and that their reasoning is very impaired.
@zegota: Nope... I wanted to because I like Kevin Smith movies, but I just never got around to it because Jason Mewes wasn't in it.
@trianaorpheus: Ack!
Arkaina
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Yeah, I don't think it's impossible to make a funny rape joke. But in this case it's not funny to me because the intensions behind the joke, delivery, etc.
And I don't find it to be dark humor either. It's just frat humor.
@MyNameIsChris: I love dark comedies but for me, it's the quotes that are more offensive. I've never seen the movie, but I'm willing to guess that this is not a dark comedy, in the classical sense of the genre, you know? I could be wrong.
gold_gato
Gah. When do women get to be the generators of comedy rather than passive reactors to it or objects of it?
DexterHaven
@hellonini9: Ugh I know. Anna Faris why must you continue to piss away your comedic talent on terrible roles?
@trianaorpheus: Have you seen the movie This Film Has Not Yet Been Rated? It actually talks about the fact that the MPAA let films with rape pass easy, but scenes with consensual sex where the woman experiences pleasure come under lots of scrutiny.
Arkaina
@OwenKlient: I agree. His surprise and her coherence suggest the writers weren't going for the LOL date rape angle.
This is on the line though, as it clearly makes some people extremely and understandably uncomfortable. However, there are no queries about showing it as an R film. Yet...gay sex? It be Lucifer, children- away!
graciousplum
Leaving aside the "rape is actually a kind of sex and it's hilarious" message, of course they would pair Seth Seth Rogen with post-surgical makeover Anna Faris. Of course.
@OwenKlient: For me, it's more the quotes.
gold_gato
@HanaMaru: The fact that he said she's unconscious should wipe out everything else. You're having sex, while she unconscious! Therefore, if a guy can just get you drunk enough to say crazy stuff and then go unconscious, then hey man - it's cool! Next time I will get him drunk, have a tickle fight and chop off his you know whats. He said I could - well he threw up while saying it then passed out but gosh darn it, he said I could!
gold_gato
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I certainly could understand many many people being offended by this, and it's obviously their right... but I like comedy that goes miles over the line. Not always, the joke doesn't always play... but I'm personally not going to hold it against Farris or Rogen for giving it a shot. I've laughed at far worse than this. I really can't think of many true dark comedies that aren't surely horrifically offensive to somebody out there. You can't win them all.
MyNameIsChris
@OwenKlient:"Not only does she throw up all over the place, she can barely walk" Well there you go.
@Mireillepa the Rappa: Really? Have you not seen Zak and Miri?
zegota
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Thanks for this. I love dark comedies, so you're not alone.
zegota
The problem here is that the film seems to be promoting the idea that as long as a totally wasted and/or practically unconscious girl mumbles some sort of consent, then it will not be considered date-rape when the guy fucks her (in fact, it will be funny!). And that they're having the generally likable, seemingly innocent Seth Rogen play the role of said guy seems to make it even more of a permissible act.
Blerg. And initially I thought this was going to be a good movie.
Fail.
Paul Blart: Mall Cop, this is not.
CricketPDX
Did anybody hear him talking about bulimia on the Daily Show? SORRY,NOT HILARIOUS, SETH ROGEN.
@maude_flanders: That is to say, Seth Rogen is playing a character, not actually date-raping someone in real life...and if he had regrets or doubts, it's too late to do anything but rationalize the scene.
Maybe I'm too quick to forgive...he must have read the script first.
Oh well...if actresses and singers (college-educated or otherwise)can hear "feminist" and still cringe at the thought of having the term applied to them (or they have their agents jump in and say, "No, no, she's not a feminist"...i.e. that Kate Winslet post on Jezebel a couple months ago, around Oscar season), I guess I shouldn't be surprised when supposedly nerdy, quirky, someonewhat sensitive actors/writers make a comedic scene out of date rape.
Overreaction? Maybe it's not so bad in the movie...?
"Date rape--that's funny, right?"
Is Anna Faris dumber (and thus, less funny) than I'd thought?
maude_flanders
@mervbaby: Yeah but she also in the exquisite Lost in Translation and the masterful Brokeback Mountain, so it all balances out.
Understater
@RisaPlata: Well, if a MAN raped a man, a la Deliverance, that's horrible. But a man not wanting sex from a woman unless she's really, really, really, really ugly and wears glasses? Hahahahaha! Cuz all guys like sex all the time! Get it?
@OwenKlient: If you can't walk on your own, you're definitely incoherent.
@TexasCrude: except that he defines what happens as consensual sex. That to me is pretty awful.
@OwenKlient: i was more offended by some of the quotes than the actual clip.
bloodflower
@RedVelvetCake: I would make the same suggestion. The film does an excellent job of portraying just how fucked up the MPAA truly is.
lorali
@trianaorpheus: Yes, yes, can't recommend This Film is Not Yet Rated enough. Great documentary.
Wow. I'm really angry at both of those actors for those rape-affirming quotes. Seth Rogen does a real disservice calling what his character does "sex while she's unconscious" A lot of guys think this a great legitimate way into a woman's pants and so much in pop culture aimed at teens affirms this. I hate everyone associated with the making of this movie. HATE.
I thought the Anna Faris interview at the avclub was really interesting; according to her, when they were shooting it, she was sure the scene was never going to make it past the censors, so she didn't even think much about it.
Savvy-faire
@RedVelvetCake: It's in the Netflix queue. If only I could get through these two DVDs I have sitting here already.
I don't know what I think of this movie; I think I have a problem with it, but honestly, I think there's a deeper problem. It sort of feeds into the "is it ok to joke about rape" question, and the question of what sets rape apart from other crimes.
The issue with using rape as a plot device (and I say this as a member of a sexual assault awareness organization who also works w/ theatre stuff) is the fact that there are so many more misconceptions about rape than about any other crime. It's really, really, really hard to write a story with rape in the plotline without it feeding into rape myths. Because the writer wants to put a twist on it - oops! the girl's a slut. or she's drunk. Or one girl got raped and then another girl didn't but she lied and said she did . . . etc.
The last of those - one real victim, one liar - was a plotline that a group i work with wanted to write. I said no way.
If you think about it, an average audience will be 1/8th survivors of sexual assault. at least 1/3 of the audience will probably be very close to a survivor. There's a mass dimension to the crime that doesn't occur with any other type of assault.
Wait, what? Seriously? I'm trying to see how they're making this funny, but I just honestly can't feel it.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLLOOLL FUN TIMES DATE RAPE IS TEH ROFLZ OOH SO EDGY
randomnessish
I expect Seth to defend the movie...he has to. What can he do? He's not the character in the movie, and it's already been filmed.(I DON'T think he's a dick...my love for Paul Rudd, Bill Hader and general Judd Apatow/Adam McKay-influenced stuff still burns bright and strong.)
I want to hear from the screenwriter/director, Jody Hill.
Why would he write the scene? Is he TRYING to be "shocking", like that damn South Park Indiana Jones episode?
How many "nice" male viewers will see this scene and be able to blow it off? Why do (MALE) screen writers ("The Watchmen" and David Hayter's bullshit letter about Sally Jupiter "coming back" being the most recent example) have to keep writing scenes like this, even in comedies?
What if women started writing scenes in shows and movies where hetero dudes were on the receiving end of this stuff?
Who are we kidding...MALE writers use the same idea--hetero men getting drunk and having sex they were too drunk to register with male partners-- for prison rape jokes and/or cheap gay jokes.
How do you make people who otherwise seem intelligent appreciate that it's NOT okay if someone forces him/herself on a person who's so sick or drunk that they vomit/stagger? What'll it take, their daughters or girlfriends brushing with the threat of sexual assault?
maude_flanders
@drinkthefat: That could be an excuse for practically ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.
gold_gato
Wow. Really? REALLY? Wow.
So glad I turned down working on this movie.
@mervbaby: Well-said.
RedVelvetCake
@baraqiel: I don't even remember that. What did they say in "Superbad"?
RedVelvetCake
Perhaps this is the beginning of the end of the current wave of dude-comedy. I'm not really sure what else I can say about this. I like Seth Rogen a little less with each movie he makes.
@trianaorpheus: Watch "This Film is not yet Rated" if you haven't already. Sadly, that attitude is commonplace with the MPAA.
RedVelvetCake
I must be sick in the head because I've been date raped and I laughed at that scene, in fact I was laughing before she even says "why are you stopping, motherfucker?" I've always been attracted to dark comedies since I was a little kid, there's something about movies that say, "no you will laugh at this horrible thing dammit" that I find comforting.
Just to make it clear, I'm not saying anyone else has to find it funny or shouldn't be offended or disgusted. I just figured I'd say my two cents out of the chance that another jezebel might relate.
@hellonini9: i kind of felt that way to, but why? she's been in tons of awful, sexist crap.
That clip actually didn't strike me as being *that* bad. He is clearly surprised that she is unconscious, which makes me think she was into it and had consented, then passed out during the act.
How drunk is too drunk to consent to sex? I always thought "too drunk" would be incoherent. Stumbling and throwing up? I don't know.
OwenKlient
Holy crap, this looks like the unfunny version of Paul Blart. And I thought Paul Blart was already the unfunny version of Paul Blart.
I like that the whole trailer sets him up as wanting to protect her from sexual diviants. And then he essentially rapes her. Perfect.
@drinkthefat: yech, that like, so totally makes it ok then.
/headdesk.
Hope this ends a career or five.
@trianaorpheus: Thank you for this. I can't wait until all the old guys on the MPAA board retire so people with common sense can (hopefully) take their place.
It reminds me of the episode of The Office where one of the older women gets flashed in the parking lot, and Michael, the boss, says, "Didn't he see Pam? Or Karen from behind?" Only that was a tv show. I didn't realize idiots like that existed in the real world (maybe in The Real World house, though).
@hellonini9: yeah that quote really disappointed me.
bloodflower
I didn't really like Wedding Crashers, because it seems to me that most of the humor of that movie is based on the idea that raping a man is inherently funny. And I don't agree. Then, the idea of Elmer Fudd raping Bugs Bunny never made me laugh either. (It's a George Carlin joke.)
It's not quite the same as this, but it's similar enough.
RisaPlata
I love Seth Rogen, but there's no way I'm seeing this. That last quote made me cry - as a victim of sexual abuse, I have no desire to use my hard earned money on a ticket that mocks assault victims. (This is just as tasteless as the Rihanna jokes at the Larry the Cable Guy roast.)
This looks fucking awful. What the fuck, Seth Rogen? You fucker.
How in the world do people still not get that if you are passing out drunk then you are not able to make coherent decisions! I don't want to make light of this, but I've said some dumb ass stuff while drunk and it is not meant to be taken literally (ie: let's go sky diving naked! or: let's get married!) so her mumbling this does not 'allow' or excuse a damn thing, especially if Rogen's character is able-minded at the time. Bleh.
gold_gato
dude, getting flashed is traumatic no matter how many dicks you've seen- it's gross
I read that interview with Anna Faris and it really threw me off. I just...wouldn't expect that from her. Not that I know her or anything but still.
I'm also not okay with this, from the NYT article:
"That the film is deliberately puncturing Mr. Rogen's screen image as a harmless, schlubby stunted adolescent only made these moments funnier to Mr. Hill. "It's my own personal joke, to see how people freak out," he said."
well if it's your own, personal joke...
drinkthefat
See! Seth Rogan: 20% okay funny, 80% completely unfunny.
Anyway, my policy on joking on subjects such as rape: I won't rule out any joke on the subject as impossible to be funny. Funny things have been said. But those funny/okay/good jokes are few and far between. The more terrible the subject, the more difficult it is to make a good joke. So, I don't have a rule against it (as one may found on Feministing, for example) but I've heard very few funny rape jokes. I think very few exist. But as for inappropraiate rape jokes, I've heard tons.
Eh, Didnt really want to see the movie anyways, not I REALLY dont want to. Shame. I used to like Seth Rogan.
And my friends thought I was overreacting when I refused to see Superbad because it had jokes about date rape. No outcry over that? Then they can go on to this, which is yet more disgusting.
That scene of the red band trailer made me so umcomfortable, but apparently the MPAA is cool with it. This and the horrific rape scene in Last House on the Left made it past the MPAA, but the gay sex scene in Bruno didn't.
"The MPAA-Looking out for the America's Youth...who are probably having more anal than you are!"
aw, that last quote is really depressing.
Well, I'm glad Seth Rogen acknowledges that date rape wouldn't go over well but this movie still looks terrible.
Eh, I figure you have to do a few The Beach's before you become Marty Scorsese's pet.
@ArtfulSlinger: I'm bashing it because it looks so unfunny. It looks like a dark comedy that forgot to put in the comedy.
@MizJenkins:
K, I have been flashed many times (all occurred when I was under 15) and what made it really uncomfortable and traumatizing for me was not the fact that it is a penis, but the fact that it is unwanted sexual energy and exposure and that some asshole put that energy on me. I believe that I have the right to not be exposed to people's genitalia and weird panting sounds when I am waiting for the fucking bus!
bandofconsciousness
@MyNameIsChris: This trailer certainly made it seem like that, moreso than the others I've seen for it.
@DexterHaven: They used to, long, long ago...
@LVA83: Yeah I basically felt like, well if he dies at the end, this movie might be decent.
I'm not sure I've thought that before...
Also, just because she "wants" to sleep with him doesn't remove the inherent abhorrence of fucking an unconscious person. It just doesn't.
@ArtfulSlinger: I get what you're saying, but let's push this a little further: is it the responsibility of people who might be upset by the implications of this scene to put themselves through watching it or otherwise shut up about rape culture even though it's pretty clear to me, and I imagine to you, that whatever goes on here, the vast majority of the audience is thinking "ha ha drunk slut!"
@o português é muito sexy: I'm disturbed at the increase in rape, particularly rape as a joke, in TV and movies lately. It's actually getting to the point where I'm encountering some kind of rape "joke" once or twice a week just watching seemingly innocuous programs. The implications of what that means about our culture and how it trivializes or excuses rape is so very creepy to me. And it's more creepy that so many people just seem completely unphased by it. It reminds me of the discussion last week about male-on-male prison rape.
grrl
@gold_gato: Yeah I'm just saying that what I have heard from early reviews even back a few months this was supposed to be a mix of "Taxi Driver" and like Bad Santa, which means it is definitely not a hilarious comedy.
@CricketPDX: exactly. you hit it on the head entirely. It's like he just single-handedly, intentionally gave permission for guys to get their dates too drunk to resist or have the faculties to give actual consent and then rape them. It doesn't just trivialize the act, it encourages it and excuses it. That's nauseating.
And his "joke" that a woman shouldn't have a problem with invasive sexual behavior like a flasher masturbating at her if she's actually had sex or "sleeps around"... OMFG! the ignorance is truly frightening. Sure, Seth, because if we consent to one act with one person, we're free game for all acts with everyone right?
Seth Rogen, I want to personally come to your house, smack you upside the head and put SOME FUCKING SENSE in your peanut brain since you obviously have no clue about the real world. or women.
Ladies of the world: run. run far. run fast.
grrl
@PilgrimSoul: Agreed. The fact that she mumbles for him not to stop does NOT mean that she gave real consent. Trust me, I know this from experience.
Cerridwen
@MyNameIsChris: No I agree, but that issue isnt with Rogen and the actors. They have virtually nothing to do with the marketing or promoting of a film, other than the PR blitz of talk shows and appearances.
This incorrect marketing tactic will backfire I think or at least I hope that it will.
My issue is that these are two separate issues. There's the rape issue and the mis-promotion of the movie. If this is truly a rape scene, which is vile, wonder how it is then handled. From what I read it could be looked at two different ways. But for the marketing stuff, this comes back to the draw of anything that closely resembles Apatow and thats an issue that needs to be brought up with WB ad NLC.
Why didnt he take her bra off so he could look at and touch her breasts????? Ive never had sex but I dont get how in movies women leave their bras on, for me itd be all about the boobs, especially if they have "erotic nipples" like in Emmanuelle movies from the 70's
Bob Ross
@MyNameIsChris: Have you seen it?
gold_gato
@PilgrimSoul: yes, it doesn't remove the inherent lack of class or self-respect either. nor does it remove the unbelievable ignorance of thinking a woman who can't even remain conscious or control her bodily functions can somehow give informed, actual consent.
Fail. just Fail.
grrl
@ArtfulSlinger: Sure, I'm with you. The rape issue and the marketing are two different things. All I'm pointing out is it's shady to make a judgement call on a film based on a trailer. Furthermore, it's really hard to differentiate between a dark comedy and a comedy in trailers/tv spots. At the end of the day, there's much less you can get away with in a trailer (and even less in a tv spot) than you can in the movie itself. Dark comedies are a really really really hard tight rope act. Marketing them is even more difficult.
A recent comparable example (though less violent, but just as mainstream a film) would be Downey in Tropic Thunder. After the initial teaser there was a segment of the viewing public that was absolutely disgusted with the film "doing blackface." Message boards were going crazy and people were outraged, even though the teaser went to great lengths to give some backstory into Downey's character. We, the audience, are SUPPOSED to be disgusted with him. And along with that, the concept is also meant to skewer the Hollywood norm of casting whites for all parts and avoiding non white actors. But none of that mattered... people were fucking outraged because they saw blackface. Blackface = evil. I guess all I'm saying is there is a really fine line with this stuff, and I don't think it's fair to say you can make a joke about rape if it's funny, because that's setting up an impossible standard. No comedian is always funny.
MyNameIsChris
@PilgrimSoul: No I get both sides. And believe me I am not any fan of anything that throws in rape as a joke. It's just I think as a whole we are looking at this movie in a totally bizarro way. We are looking at something form a 30 second commercial studio marketing executives put together so all us idiots go out. And then we are taking semi-quotes to basically condemn it.
There is nothing more vile to me than rape and when it used as sort of a plot point, it makes me nauseous, like it was on "South Park". But I think this movie is about disgusting people, doing disgusting things, like a loser mall cop who beats up kids and sleeps with his unconcious date. Or a beauty counter clerk who loathes herself so much she would self induce a drug coma just to get laid. But I do agree that it is important for someone to know about stuff before they go into a theater and pay 11 dollars for something. I think the true problem is with the marketing and the misguidance on WB and NLC.
@ArtfulSlinger: seeing the whole movie is irrelevant here: I mean, are there ANY circumstances in which what has been outlined are acceptable?
- fucking an unconscious person
- fucking a person who is so drugged she's vomited all over herself and clearly has no control of her actions
- fucking a person who clearly is not in control of her faculties, proved by both the heavy drugs and passing out
- stating that once a woman has sex with several people she's fair game for any kind of sex crime, such as being the victim of a flasher who masturbates at you
I seriously can't think of any context in any film in which those would be considered ok. Are you trying to say that if a woman drugs herself, a man has carte blanche for sex? I'm at a total loss here. I also don't think Seth's interviews are doing ANYTHING to help the case here.
grrl
@CricketPDX: the idea that as long as a totally wasted and/or practically unconscious girl mumbles some sort of consent, then it will not be considered date-rape when the guy fucks her (in fact, it will be funny!).
This. They assume that because she mumbles something akin to consent, she actually was capable of giving real consent. There is no subtle understanding of what consent means or when it is meaningful and when it is not. We are supposed to laugh because, "Oh, haha, LOL! It wasn't really rape! We can breathe easy now." But it is still rape. He was fucking an unconscious person. I'm having a hard time putting this into words, it's more a feeling, but I have been there and I know that it really isn't meaningful consent when you're that intoxicated.
Cerridwen
@MyNameIsChris: Sorry I got cut off, but you said what I was trying to say in a great way. Also, I believe that this, Tropic Thunder and the Watchmen are all marketed by the same group, which could explain the inconsistencies with understanding a target audience.
@grrl: So you're saying movies should never portray people acting immorally?
Bob Ross
@MyNameIsChris: Exactly! Its hard to get across that Downey's character is supposed to be disliked, as most of them are, in a 30 second trailer.
@mharker: I masturbated to that scene
Bob Ross
I knew my previously-unfounded, blind hatred of Seth Rogan would someday turn out to be founded.
@[video.google.com]
@IceCreamIsAwesome: I like dark humor as well. But the difference here is that dark comedy is supposed to be drawing attention to the horrors of something and helping us to deal with those horrors through the use of absurdity --- this film is not doing that, it's instead making a joke of rape, at the expense of victims.
It's saying "it's not rape, it's just fucking an unconscious woman incapable of giving actual consent... and that's ok, it's so ok it's even funny" . The actors' quotes themselves indicate they have dangerous, sexist view of women and sex crimes. That women who "sleep around" shouldn't be bothered by a sex crime. That men who lack all self-respect, intelligence, class and respect for their partner should be excused from their actions because they're just that lovable dumb guy who didn't know better.
This is very dangerous and disturbing to me and I shudder to think the impression it's going to leave on the thousands of crappy, sexist, ignorant men who happen to see it. Dark comedy allows everyone to share in the experience in a manageable way without excusing the experience. The kind of thing done in this movie seems like putting a loaded gun in the hand of someone with anger management issues.
grrl
@mharker: Theres a few decent rape jokes in the Pirates movie with Graham Chapman.
Or the cartoon "philosophers raping a small town"
Bob Ross
@grrl: Well Rogen is horrible during interviews, so he couldn't help sell anything with them.
I'm not saying that it should be okay at all, but I dont believe thats the point of the movie. The movie is focused on disgusting people doing disgusting things. Its not some hilarious movie with a random rape scene in it for added hijinx. And I would prefer to not just ignore that there are wretched people out there continously doing these things to people, but actually confronting it. But from what I have heard, more than just the random comment during the scene, her character proactively gets fucked up so she CAN sleep with him. Not sure that makes a difference, but its certainly not the scene we have all been discussing.
@Mireillepa the Rappa: He is in it, his hair is cut short so it took me a second before I realized it was him. Well, he was naked, too, so that slowed down the ID process.
MOJITOBABY
@MyNameIsChris: would be Downey in Tropic Thunder. ...We, the audience, are SUPPOSED to be disgusted with him.
Which is the key difference between that fiml and this. Here we are NOT supposed to be disgusted. His actions are being excused, and the interviews with the actors confirm that. Huge difference.
grrl
@trianaorpheus: I pointed this out too in that Dirt Bag featuring the Bruno NC-17 rating slapped on it by those old fogies at the MPAA. Happy, consensual sex between two partners, especially if it features two dudes = bad for the teens. Violent or rape sex = Okay. It makes me ill. I guess one way to think about it is maybe these people see a violent sex scene as more integral to the film or whatever or more important to a storyline that it needs to be left in, but the other kind of sex is fluff that can be tossed off. But that reasoning is a weak bone to throw.
Ok, I don't care that Seth Rogan is in this. I don't expect too much from him anyway. But Ray Liotta? I thought that guy had more class!
I'm sorry, but I don't get the big deal. I assumed she had fallen asleep while they were having sex. I really think people are blowing this WAY out of proportion...
@DexterHaven: When they start being funny
Bob Ross
@ArtfulSlinger: Yeah... I really agree with you more than just about anybody here. Ha! And I'm really not saying this film succeeds, but what can you do? If a subject is capable of making funny jokes about, it's obviously possible to make bad jokes about. Woody Allen makes Holocaust jokes and they work... I'd say the Holocaust is a tougher subject than this stupid gag.
Also... I work in film marketing which is really why I'm sort of fascinated by this. And Watchmen and Tropic Thunder were not, by and large, handled by the same agencies. But I agree there are interesting things to consider about both of those campaigns...
MyNameIsChris
So I watched the trailer and IMHO, that poor stereotype of a girl, Brandi, couldn't have said it better: yes, why are they stopping? They should make piles of movies like these over and over again with their wonderful dick heads all in the name of BARF.
@ArtfulSlinger: I get your point that a movie about disgusting people doing disgusting things puts the scene in some context. And that's true. What disturbs me is that in the interviews he's indicating that he doesn't actually understand the actions are wrong. He's expressing ignorance about rape, stating that "consent" given while drugged, semi-conscious and clearly not in control of one's faculties is actual consent. That's a huge problem. Given his influence and position as a celebrity it's a dangerous and erroneous message to deliver to his audience. Particularly when that audience is predominantly male and not exactly known for it's grasp on maturity.
I'd feel differently if he had said, "sure, it's terrible. there's no way this guy should be having sex with that woman, but we wanted to take it really far to show that date rape is wrong through the use of such absurdity. we're laughing at what a disgusting and ignorant person he is"
grrl
@grrl: I don't believe that to be the case, but I see your argument. Yes, Rogen in his interview is saying that her line kind of saves the day from making it an out and out rape scene. But that doesn't inherently mean his character is a loveavble goof... more than anything I take that quote to be about the desire to fuck with an audience, string them along to a certain point, and then his the ejector seat. Again, this is about as far as I'm willing to speculate. I haven't actually seen the film, but I have friends who've worked on it and from what I hear from them, or the buzz in general, it's a very fucked up dark dark film. I'm not making a judgement call on it's quality. I'm simply saying the Rogen character is not the "hero" in a conventional sense.
As per the previous comment. We have different definitions of dark comedy. I don't believe dark comedy is some sort of moral compass to teach lessons. I suppose it CAN be, but in those cases I'd tend to say it's leaning closer to satire, i.e. comedy trying to make a specific point about something through humor. I didn't learn many lessons from John Waters films. You might have a movie about accidentally killing your friend and then trying to cover it up. No real message or point, just dark dark humor. Gallows humor if you will.
As for the greater point about people seeing this and what sort of impression it will leave? Eh. That's a problem with an absurd amount of our "entertainment" and goes well beyond one bad joke in this film. I'd hardly presume THIS film would be the place to really start worrying about how media affects viewers. It's a different conversation.
That's about all I got... haha. You're offended. Great. It's a pretty offensive joke as far as I can tell. That's probably the point.
MyNameIsChris
Anyone more disappointed in the disturbing quotes made by one Anna Faris about the scenes and ideas in question? I think she's been hanging around in the boys' club for far too long.
@OwenKlient: I agree that the clip wasn't as bad as I expected. It seemed as if he was going to stop with her being unconscious. However no one should ever think it is acceptable to sleep with someone who is that incapacitated, regardless whether consent is given.
I do think some of the quotes were horrible and I think the general violence of the film is abhorrent.
Not to derail, but blogetiquette sez you ought to link to Sady's blog itself rather than the larger blog that quoted her: [tigerbeatdown.blogspot.com]
Tanglethis
@MyNameIsChris: I wasn't trying to say "oh noes! seth rogen is the downfall of humanity!" *L* I was saying that given his influence and popularity, and given his predominately male audience, it's not off base to say that such a scene which not only seems to condone date rape, it also gives erroneous info as to what constitutes date rape, could have some unsettling negative results as some viewers put that message in action. My problem with the scenes are more the actors' statements about it, indicating dangerous ignorance rather than dark humor.
I don't think rape is something that can never be joked about. But in order to find some dark humor in it you have to actually know what it is. And Rogen indicates he doesn't.
As far as dark humor, I agree that it's not necessarily a tool of a morality lesson. What I meant was that even in dark films such as Heathers or Fargo or Guy Ritchie films (no the best examples, my brain is blanking at the moment) the audience still realizes that the actions are wrong. Or the film is using the bad situation as a commentary on the character.
grrl
@mharker: I agree with most of you. I don't think that rape is okay, nor do I think slut shaming is okay. And from what I've seen of this movie I don't think that this is an instance of an okay joke about rape. I'm just saying I won't rule out entire topics of comedy just because the reality of the subject is awful and unacceptable. I tend to disagree with you mharker, in that I think it's discomfort rather than familiarity with a topic that provides humor. Some of the funniest improv comedy I've ever seen has started off with the most cringe inducing scenarios imaginable. The discomfort primes an audience for laughter because that's what they need. It's a survival instinct.
The Wanda Sykes bit is funny.
@OwenKlient: How drunk is too drunk to consent to sex?
for serious? if you have to ask that question AT ALL in a situation, the answer is always "any amount of drunk".
Male or female, if there is ANY doubt as to the person's consciousness, mental state, sobriety, faculties, or comfort... the answer is don't have sex.
That's as much about rape as it is about basic decency and self-respect. Each person will be different, and each situation with the same person can be different. If there's any doubt, just don't.
grrl
I almost feel sorry for Rogen when you ladies get through with him. But not quite...
PandoraSpocks
Sorry, but not everything can be Thelma & Louise. Its a movie. Dark comedy. Grow up.
Almostbanned
@bandofconsciousness: Or heavy breathing from the old man two seats over who's been staring at you while you tried to watch Pump Up the Volume and pretend he wasn't there until splattering sounds make you finally get up and find an usher to throw his skanky ass out for you.
@bandofconsciousness: what made it really uncomfortable and traumatizing for me was not the fact that it is a penis, but the fact that it is unwanted sexual energy and exposure and that some asshole put that energy on me.
ding! people who don't get that seem to think that one penis is just like another, so if we consent to seeing our husband's or boyfriend's penis then we consent to ANYONE to show their penis, so why should it matter.
I was on a train and this guy sitting across from me was so sloppy, fall down drunk it was disgusting. He was almost slobbering on himself and couldn't sit up straight. I was reading a book and the corner of my noticed an odd repetitive movement, so I glanced up. And saw him there staring at me with this grotesque smile on his face, hand on his penis, masturbating. I was furious. He had no right to involve me in a sex act, nor make me an unwilling participant. He had no right to invade a public space and turn it into his private sex room. He had no right to turn my innocent commute sitting into his fantasy wank off. It was invasive and wrong in every way.
grrl
@Almostbanned: Oh! I forgot to grow up today. Thanks for the reminder.
@OwenKlient: On the other hand, Seth Rogan's quote makes it pretty cleat that he, the writer, wrote the scene as her passed out and he says flat out that it's not okay. What depresses and frightens me is that he thinks that her line not only makes it funny, but that it MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY. I feel like I'm being exposed to some terrifying male logic that shows me how they can justify some of the seriously shitty things they do to women because it can retroactively be made okay by her even just *seeming* to like one second of it.
Aaaargh no more ranting.
And @HanaMaru: WELL SAID. I think that's part of what makes my angry buzzer go off - that a lack of overt rejection can constitute acceptance for some fuckheads because hey, that's what ladyparts are for, right? You just have to put up with the woman wrapped around them to get access.
Okay so maybe I had a little rant left.
This movie does not look funny. And that scene is not okay. I am very, very disappointed in Seth Rogen and Anna Faris. It is really fucked that we live in a society where any of us saying that will open us to charges of being uptight morality police. I'm glad for this community here.
CatherineSloper
It's hard though, because joking about something is often a way to address something (not saying this is true here per say).
Racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny etc are all addressed through comedy. Not always well but it's the conversation - so that doesn't condone it but it's the other side of the coin.
And no woman ever EVER deserves to have sex when she can't consent or says no, but I've had some drunken sex that I wanted.
kissmyarchetype
@ELovejoy925: um, yeah, people tend to do that a lot here...
thats what i got from that scene too, for what its worth.
onehotmess
@OwenKlient: Dude - if you can seriously make this statement, then you might have a little bit of jail time waiting for you in you future. better get your ass educated out here first rather than getting all your rape education in there!
David Stewart
@HanaMaru:
"in bizarro world where women are believed and justice is swift"
So well put and so very sad.
Dogtanian
@HanaMaru: Right. Many men will say, "Date rape is awful. I don't condone it in any circumstance. I just laughed because the scene is funny." Which I can vaguely understand on some level -- I've often laughed at abhorrent things, despite my shame. But the problem is that not only do jokes like these encourage the mindset of opportunistic rapist men, they contribute to the normalization of it. When you start to laugh at something, the sting is taken away. It slowly shifts from, "Oh, god, did they just JOKE about that?" to "Oh, yeah, another date rape joke. Heh." And while I do believe in finding levity even in horror, I don't want to live in a society that finds those types of jokes normal and funny.
liz.lemonade
@Almostbanned: yeah, I appreciate dark comedy. but this just seems...hmm...dumb and offensive and unfunny all at once?
@PilgrimSoul: oh you and your "understanding of the law"
@MizJenkins: and the whole my penis is brown. oh hahahahahaha. foreigners are so funny! with their accents and whatnot.
@Almostbanned: It's a MOVIE???!! I'm so glad you're here to tell us that. I would not have known otherwise. You, sir, are a valuable addition to this discussion!
Sigh. I was a lil' fuzzy as to if what happened to me Saturday night was date rape or not. Seeing this clip gave me a sinking feeling that it indeed was. I don't remember anything really before being asked "Are you sure?" or after. Just that lil' 5 second period where I slurred out, "Yeah." Me = six beers, Him = 3 sparks. Hm. Being blacked out the entire time and THEN getting razzed for the loud sex you don't remember having the next day BLOWS. I will not be seeing this film and totally relate to the Shakesville quote.
Frankly I'm not shocked by this. With the exception of 40 yr old virgin (written partly by Steve Carrell) I have found these apatow comedies spotty at best. I also thought Superbad was out and out boring. Pineapple Express was a huge disappointment, for a stoner comedy you'd be better served by Grandma's Boy.
@swedishfishing: It was just the one guy, right? Jonah Hill's character? And he was kind of the loser buffoon. I actually though Superbad was redeemed by Michael Cera's character, who never really bought the whole get girls drunk and have sex with them thing--and then had the courage to admit he didn't want to have sex when he had the chance. He was the kid you were rooting for and identifying with, right? Jonah Hill was a ass and a loser.
Observe & Report, on the other hand, looks completely horrible and woman-hatey in the previews. Ugh. I wish Anna Faris had not done this one.
Perhaps what you missed that the clip, as it does not contain the entire scene, is preceded by "a date of heavy drinking and drug use" in which the female character throws up everywhere and can't walk by herself. Does that change how you feel about it? Just curious...
@SoakedNSinamyn: I'm really sorry. That's awful.
JessaFields
@grrl: arg, typo. multitasking. should have read:
"was reading a book and OUT OF the corner of my EYE noticed"
grrl
Just want to point out, if this changes anything for anyone...
(not that anyone's comments thus far haven't been valid. It is unbelievably wrongheaded and truly gross for both rogen and faris to characterize that scene in such a way to make it seem excusable or funny)
I saw the movie at an early screening... and I thought it was great, iconic among dark comedies even, (though i'm seeing it again tomorrow, and a second viewing always changes things) but I want to make it absolutely clear that the actors seem to be trying to imply that the movie is funnier than it is in order to get people to see it (its sort of a hard sell, especially post paul blart)
seth rogen's character is unbelievably despicable. he is a rapist. he's intended to be viewed that way. I don't think the scene is funny so much as its another example of how horrifying a human being he is, and how sad, pathetic and low he is. also, that he lives in some kind of a fantasy world where his actions are justified.
So, the joke's on his character ultimately for being such an utterly awful human being. The joke is not on women being raped.
Just my two cents. If you're not willing to give your money, at least give it a chance when it inevitably leaks on the internet, its a truly fascinating character piece that's worth seeing.
alltheteainchina
Sweet, this paves the way for my new Holocaust musical comedy starring Adam Sandler as Adolph Hitler and a ast of thousands.
@alltheteainchina:
oh wow, way for me to read the comments. someone already said pretty much what i just did. sorry ya'll.
alltheteainchina
@SoakedNSinamyn: so sorry that happened to you.
@alltheteainchina: After reading the earlier thread, and your take on the film it clarifies the incongruity of the tone of the film (which for me is lacking in the clip above and in all the previews I have seen) to the way in which it is being marketed. I would only hope that many people who see this will come away with the same impression that you did.
@bluebears: But these aren't all Apatow comedies. They are movies that have people who also were in Apatow films, but Pineapple Express is not an Apatow film, nor technically was Superbad.
And Superbad, as long as you are a female over the age of 25, wasn't meant for you.
The problem for me, over everything else, isn't the stupidity of the logic here (she said it's OK so that makes everything fine) or the apparent brainless mediocrity of what's supposed to be a 'dark' comedy or that yet another seemingly clueless white male is taking it upon himself to explain why something that looks horrible is really acceptable and I'm just misperceiving it.
The problem is that Hollywood will pitch millions of dollars to Seth Rogen and his entire fratty slapsticky dimwitted just-one-of-the-guys class of 'creative' people over and over and over again no matter how much they suck, whereas any female attempting the same, unless she's making a big broad comedy about some 'endearingly' awkward girl looking for love--Caucasian and blonde, naturally--will practically have to beg in the streets for financing and expect an underpublicized limited release if she's lucky.
THAT'S what's wrong with this picture.
Mercutia
@Mercutia: This is very valid point on the state of Hollywood. Unfortunately, even when women try to make a broad comedy, they are still shut out.
Check out this story: [www.cinematical.com]
The real problem with the scene is it could give a lot of young guys the idea that fucking a mostly unconscious woman is okay, when really it is rape.
Are people in Hollywood really dumb or do they lack morals? How could they have filmed this scene without worrying about how it would effect their young, mostly male audience?
clevernamehere
@alltheteainchina: Thanks for the review.
@SoakedNSinamyn: That's terrible. I'm so sorry, dear.
@mipsy6: Agreed on all counts.
Eriu
@grrl: We can both agree that he is not doing himself any favors with being flippant about rape. And honestly, I couldn't agree that it would be quite important for him to discuss how terrible this is.
@MyNameIsChris: Funny. I work in marketing and write a blog on films, so we are definitely interested for the same reasons.
But thanks for the info on the agencies. And Allen really does have a wonderful way to tackle issues.
@Cocotte: Seth Rogen didn't write it... Jody Hill did.
bellejay
@baraqiel: I think what it actually shows is that people really don't understand consent or what the line with two people who are drunk.
What the character's talk about is something a lot of teens do. Drink and have sex. And, in that movie, they don't have sex. Because either one person (Cera's character) realizes this isn't the way to do it...or the girl tells the other character (Hill's) that this isn't the way to do it.
I get where you're coming from, and I do think consent is a relevant discussion in the film. But it's not advocating date rape. It's talking about the reality of being a teen. Lots of people drink and do, in fact, give consent. Because their inhibitions are lowered, not because they're (like in the movie above) unconscious.
If Suerbad had turned out differently, if they had slept with the girls, then yes, we'd have a huge problem. But they didn't.
tiredfairy
@Eeva: I saw a pre-screening of this, and nearly walked out. It would not surprise me in any way if Paul Blart was actually much better.
This movie is not only unfunny and offensive, but SO poorly written and constructed. I felt like it was some pre-teen's summer project with his buddies, just with better production values.
bellejay
@HanaMaru: "A lot of guys think this a great legitimate way into a woman's pants and so much in pop culture aimed at teens affirms this."
I agree completely with this statement (and the rest). Personally, I decided on his last Daily Show appearance that I was done with Seth Rogan's stoner voice & humor for a while - I just find it annoying. But, hate starts bowling up towards all the actors, writers, director, producers involved in this particular comedy. They KNOW who the flippin' audience is. Unless they are ok with women (including the women in their lives) being date raped, then they shouldn't portray it as something fun, normal, and ok. Its incredibly unethical on their part. And I don't believe that all films need to be educational or political. But come on! This is something that happens every day, for which the the perpetrators are only rarely prosecuted, and which can just about ruin the lives of victims.
@Hooplehead: This movie isn't by Apatow though. It's directed and written by Jody Hill who did "The Foot Fist Way".
thecameralovesyou
@OwenKlient: Wow. Just wow.
Eriu
@tiredfairy: And by "doesn't get it" I don't mean the audience, I mean the character who thinks whatever the awful/offensive thing is is okay to say or is funny. Such as Michale not understanding what flashing is really about, or Kelly's almost sublime level of self-centeredness.
tiredfairy
@Spacegirl.goes.home: you turned down the lead!!
This makes my insides feel all kinds of hurt. I wasn't planning on seeing this movie because it looked like a big piece of shit, but now I'll be making sure I don't see a movie involving anyone from this one ever again.
Eriu
I wasn't wowed by the weird trailer I saw in the theater...and then I saw this one a week or so ago and went, no, thanks. Not because I don't like appreciate dark comedies...I do. Heathers, Very Bad Things, Grosse Point Blank, etc.
This, however, looks...you know...awful. As in awful people doing awful things I have no interest in seeing.
And I appreciate inappropriate humor. The Office has actually done this kind of thing really well, such as when Phyllis was flashed, or Kelly's tendency to cry "rape" when she's in trouble. It manages to be funny, in an uncomfortable way, and makes it clear that whoever "doesn't get it" looks like an ass.
I'm more disappointed by the quotes. They seem oddly...clueless. Not because I can't see how those situations can be funny in a bleak, disturbing, grotesque way...but because they seem to think the humor redeems the acts of their awfulness. Which seems off to me. Way off.
tiredfairy
I think that when they market a movie to look completely different then it is, it's irresponsible! I mean, this movie is rated R so it's less likely that a young child will go to it because they see the other commercials where it just looks like Paul Blart v2.0. But if I hadn't read this article I totally would've thought this movie was along the lines of any other Seth Rogen movie: A goofy comedy, that I enjoy. I would be upset to go to the movies expecting THAT and getting date rape and dark comedy. I like dark comedy but I need to be in the mood.
It's like when Doubt was in theatres, I saw a RIDICULOUS commercial for it where it looked like it was a happy-go-lucky, hilarious nun comedy a la Sister Act! I was watching it with my husband who had heard nothing about the movie and asked him what he thought it was about from that commercial. He thought it was about a priest and nun that didn't get along and their hilarious hijinks. a BIT off.
Reminds me of the fake trailers people make online where they change the genre of a film (like the comedy trailer for "The Shining")
+ Watch video
thecameralovesyou
@CricketPDX: Uh, yes. "Too drunk to consent" does not have to mean "too drunk to speak."
Eriu
@grrl:This is essentially my problem with this. As other people have noted, The Office tackled this somewhat with Phyllis being flashed and it's that...it's not funny that she's flashed. It's funny, in an uncomfortable, awful way, that Michael is such a complete idiot that he doesn't get it. And we're clearly supposed to know he's an idiot and insensitive and dumb.
What worries me is that the way Rogen stated the above, it sounds like he thinks having an arguably funny line thrown in, negates how awful it is. Which it doesn't. It -might- be funny because it's awful...that's going to be individual. But it's not suddenly haha funny and no longer bad.
tiredfairy
@alltheteainchina: But if it is about this horrible, unredeemable person why would Seth Rogan say that Anna Faris's line "makes it all okay"?
clevernamehere
I'm going out on a limb here in supposing that Rogan's character is an antihero - a loser, asshole that we are barely supposed to tolerate. NOT the loveable buffoon that we identify with and cheer-on.
But, as with most big movies, the trailer and marketing campaigns miss the mark by trying to distill everything down to reach the lowest common denominator of the American public.
Watching this, and the other teaser/trailers, I have no reason to sympathize with Rogan's character other than pity. He doesn't seem like a loveable buffoon at all, and Farris' character doesn't have a lot of endearing qualities either. Yes, I will likely feel something when watching that scene, but framed with the rest of the story, what will that be?
I'm not condoning what's depicted - just giving an assessment of what I see - Trying to use what little context there is to make sense of it.
@bellejay: Okay. but we still have the guy playing the scene saying that he saw it as a "not right" situation, so same deal imo.
@tiredfairy: Oof, typos. Also, just to clarify, I don't at all want to give the impression that I think women are default consensual or anything. They aren't. And there are definitely ethical issues here. Which, to me at least, I felt the movie actually dealt with by not having either character sleep with the girl they wanted to. Because it's A. bravado and B. something they ultimately realize is wrong and not something they want.
I also think it's important to note that having some alcohol doesn't make you unable to give consent. I've had drinks and gotten tipsy and consented fully and totally to sex with my partner. However, there's a difference between that and staggering around or unconscious or clearly out of it.
tiredfairy
He states in his interview with Jon Stewart that the whole throw of the movie is to be as horrible as possible. Success, Mr. Rogen.
If you don't like rape used for comedy, be sure to avoid The Fantasticks and Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus.
James Stoicheff
But wait. I have been drunk and wanted to have sex. By the arguments some people are presenting in here, my own choice was invalid?
Seriously now. I've wanted sex when I was drunk. And been glad to have done it the next day.
I probably won't see the movie either way- I don't like his work that much. Unfunny usually.
@James Stoicheff: And possibly, John Hughes' Sixteen Candles.
This is certainly a tough subject. Watching the scene I was left feeling disgusted, even though I knew what would happen I still watched it (my fault) and it triggered some bad memories. I read Alltheteainchina's reply, and that did at least tell me why in the hell anyone would think this is a good idea.
The boy and I just argued over it and he said that he just doesn't let that stuff bother him. I replied that he has not been through it and bad memories don't come up like it does for me. He quickly shut up, but he understood.
I think that the humor could of worked if it was more thoughtful. I don't think there's anything in this world that you can't find humor in, but its how you go about doing it that matters.
doingtheunstuck
@James Stoicheff: I have NEVER considered Titus Andronicus a comedy. Who on earth looks at what happens to Lavinia and thinks it's supposed to be humorous?
Ms. Audrey Horne [Formerly KatelyAW]
@velvet.fistfull of love: For what it's worth, there's also visible vomit on her pillow during the sex scene, so she's still not in control of her body DURING sex.
I think that the information I have points to the filmmakers thinking her slur was consent, obviously it's not. But, we don't have so much to go on here other than Seth Rogen's flapping head in the interview.
Also...
+ Watch video
Date rape? The end of the clip she wanted to fuck him (sure she might regret it when not drunk, but more in a what was I thinking kind of way).
goodcheapfun
@jentropic: Oops, sorry to read everybody's comments except thecameralovesyou .
:Slapping self on the wrist:
@velvet.fistfull of love: No, not really. You can drink heavily, make poor decisions but that doesn't make it rape. Her comment voids the accusation of rape. In my opinion date rape suggests force and I didn't really see any force.
@ELovejoy925: Rape happens when there is LACK OF CONSENT.
You think she's capable of consent in that state?
@velvet.fistfull of love: *not to stop.
@ELovejoy925: Right. Poor decisions. Considering the woman is unconscious (see Seth Rogen's quote) I'm a little more concerned with the poor decision of the male character (who himself appears to have some semblance of sobriety) TO HAVE SEX WITH AN UNCONSCIOUS WOMAN. Being an active and willing participant in drunken sex is different then being raped when you are passed the fuck out. Never mind that he had to start having sex with her before she told him not to start, know what I mean.
@tiredfairy: But he wanted to get her drunk specifically BECAUSE he thought she'd never have sex with him sober. That's the whole reason they were desperate to get alcohol, which was the plot device behind pretty much all of the action. Basically, this group of three friends was trying to help one of them date rape a mutual acquaintance.
katyarizhaya
Expecting ACTORS to eloquently explain or articulate what is a sensitive issue as well as a complex comedic concept is unrealistic. So if their trite explanation makes you more enraged, it's probably thier fault more than the movie's.
Movies have made people laugh at all sorts of awful terrible things. Like murder.
I'd have to see it in context, not written out to me, to make any judgment calls.
fugit
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Thank christ I'm not alone! There is nothing even remotely date rape about this scene in my view, and the last quote which claims rape victims will be traumatized by it is not only patronizing but also along the lines of saying that no one should make any comedy that might offend anyone else. Ever. Which, in my opinion, is ridiculous.
I also don't find any of the quotes even vaguely offensive. This whole brewhaha reminds me of when "There's Something About Mary" came out and everyone went apeshit that it was offensive to disabled people.
@LAkebandit: See, I actually wanted to see it because I (used to) love Anna Faris.
After seeing this, I will definitely not go see it. Spend my money on that kind of shit? No thanks, assholes.
@clevernamehere:
I don't know why he said that.
It almost makes it seem like he hasn't seen his own scene. or that he just doesn't get it. Or that he's trying to make it funny/okay so people will go. Either way its a really douchey thing for him to say.
alltheteainchina
Oh, Seth Rogen, no. Just no. It still rape and it's not funny.
@Cocotte: Wait, are you trying to say that all vaginas are not for putting penises in all the time? I thought that it was: "Hey, a vag, I'll put my penis in and see what happens."
honeydeeew
@grrl: In a perfect world, I would say you're right (about the "any drunk is too drunk.") But I know I've been drunk and consented to sex, both with boyfriends and with flings. I didn't feel victimized the next day; just hung over and maybe a little embarrassed (and sometimes awesome!). Does that make me warped or a victim? I don't think it does. I'm not saying I agree with the LAME quotes Seth Rogen gave, but saying that someone has to be stone sober every time they consent to sex...I don't buy that.
ediebeale
@ediebeale: Well, right. But you obviously consented to the sex. If there's an enthusiastic, though drunk, consent (desire, even, but let's not upset the patriarchal norm of women potentially enjoying sex, gods forbid!) then it's not rape. But if you're so drunk that you're throwing up on yourself... have you ever wanted to have sex while your shirt is covered in barf? Has anyone?
If you weren't raped, then you weren't raped, and the discussion of "too drunk to consent" doesn't really apply to you, right? But if you're passing out/puking and won't remember it the next day, then it's more likely than not rape. And it's not like Anna Faris was going to die-- if Seth Rogen was all, "Hmm, maybe she does want to have sex, but maybe it's just the booze. If she wants to have sex then we can do it tomorrow, so I should probably not fuck her just in case it's just the alcohol poisoning talking. It's better to be a not-rapist and lose a chance to have sex than to unknowingly rape someone. Plus, it's fucking gross to have sex with someone who's covered in their own vomit," well, then the movie would have been much better.
But rape can be funny. You guys said so.
BiBiVirtue
@Cimorene: I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if that would make it better or not. I'm reserving judgment until I see it--I saw a comment somewhere down the thread by someone who had seen it, and said it was a dark character study, not a comedy, and that you're not supposed to be on board with everything Seth Rogen's character does. Again, does not excuse the stupid quotes he gave, but I'm reserving judgment until I've seen the whole movie, not just the trailer or a clip.
ediebeale
You crack "child molester" jokes?
Seriously?
How many of you have actually watched the movie? I've never seen it so my opinion wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Most trailers are nothing like the film from my experience or at least don't tell the entire story. That's kinda the point of seeing the entire thing.
I'm curious to hear opinions from people who have seen more than an article on Jezebel.
Rape not funny? It's fucking hilarious ladies! Especially when you're the one doing the raping!
Rick Rude
@victoriasauce: My question about the child molester jokes was for avocadosaredelicious. Why can't I reply!????
maybe there's a reason its called "Observe and Report"....
IceRoadHooker
@mharker: Eastbound and Down was AMAZING
IceRoadHooker
@IceCreamIsAwesome: you're not alone -- there's also the fact to consider that this (rather ridiculous, coming from jezebel, quite frankly) article and the articles it quotes are taking the scene entirely out of the context of the movie. from everything i have seen/heard/been told seth rogan's character is SUPPOSED to be a completely insane, horrible human being. "this bears more resemblance to the cable guy or the king of comedy than superbad" type comments. i mean, seriously, is it just NOT OK to have rape in a movie, ever? is that the point of this discussion? i don't really get it.
@CricketPDX: HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKABLE IN THE MOVIE; HE'S PLAYING A SOCIOPATH.
guys, if you don't actually know what this movie is about, and are just assuming that rogan is playing his normal bumbling lovable jackass and this is some kind of superbad romp, please stop talking about it because it is really kind of uncool to discuss the societal implications of a movie that you have no idea about.
@baraqiel: What? You guys don't like to get drunk and fuck?
That's a joke, but in my opinion Rogen explains himself well. It's similar to Eminem killing people on records, in that this is art (in this case via a dark comedy) attempting to say something bigger about our shared experience as human beings.
The mere fact that it generates so much visceral emotion is redeeming. This obviously is something society needs to talk about.
LeeroySpitzer
@LisaMc: i think the point being made is that 80% of the comments here don't seem to actually understand what this movie is about. it's not going to fucking NORMALIZE date rape. rogan is playing a psychopath who also, just in the trailers alone, tazers random people and throws dudes into pizza ovens for crying out loud. it's more akin to "king of comedy" than to "superbad" or whatever other cuddly thing you guys are associating rogan with, and people are making a really big deal about a date rape scene in a black comedy about a horrible human being.
you can dislike black comedy but this "this normalizes date rape, how many 'nice' guys are gonna see this and think it's ok..." nonsense has got to stop.
@Eeva: They're really selling this movie the wrong way. The best quote I've seen about that was in new york magazine: this is to paul blart what taxi driver is to taxi. Too many people are being sold an apatowish movie, and it certainly is not that.
@resonanteye: yes, this is the argument being put forth, repeatedly. it is completely invalid for a woman who has drank or done drugs to consent to sex, and a man who has also been drinking/doing drugs should have the wherewithal to know that her "yes" is actually a "no".
[www.facebook.com]
@baraqiel: Wow, please get over yourself. The point of that movie was that getting someone "drunk enough" wasn't a good idea and it actually had a very good moral ending.
Until any of you see the movie you shouldn't comment on the "date rape" scene. From what I've read about the movie it's an extremely dark comedy in which Seth Rogan plays a trigger-happy psychopatah ala Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver. Just because someone is the main character in a film doesn't mean you should root for him, and just because something is abhorrent in real life doesn't mean it can't be milked for laughs in fiction.
And since when is two people getting drunk and fucking date rape? I mean, it looks like date rape in the movie, but if I get hammered with a girl who is equally hammered and we both wake up regretting being drunk and stupid I don't understand how either of us took advantage of the other.
@katyarizhaya: Totally agree. I'm so glad that I wasn't the only one who was grossed out by the premise of that movie. (And how does having the Michael Cera character not date rape someone cancel out the Jonah Hill character's wanting and planning to? I don't get that theory at all.)
KatrinaBullfinch
I'm going to have to chime in with those who are saying the biggest problem with Observe & Report is that it's probably one of the most poorly marketed films of all time. The TV spots in no way suggest that Rogen's character is supposed to be batshit crazy, just kind of inept and obnoxious. They want to get the Paul Blart audience into the theaters, and those people are going to complain that the film was misrepresented as slapstick comedy, which is correct. It can't be marketed as the black comedy it is because those movies simply don't make any money.
That being said, saying Observe & Report is going to tell men it's okay to commit rape is about as silly and naive as saying movies like Natural Born Killers are responsible for people going on killing sprees, or Trainspotting is going to influence teenagers to try heroin. People are responsible for their own actions, if a man watches this movie and goes out and rapes someone afterward, it has nothing to do with Seth Rogen or Anna Faris. He'd likely have the same urge if he was watching Fast and the Furious. I doubt Seth Rogen himself was minimizing the seriousness of rape, but more explaining how the character he was playing perceived it.
This is hardly the first movie featuring a loathsome main character. How many people were calling for Christian Bale's balls on a platter after he made American Psycho, or Harvey Keitel when he starred in Bad Lieutenant?
Gena Radcliffe
@allyzay: If it's supposed to be offensive, excuse us for being offended. Perhaps being offensive while making some kind of valid point, even if it's just to get a laugh, would give it cred. This particular trailer isn't funny enough to merit all the offensive shit going on in it. The trailer I'm seeing on TV has Rogen talking to his drunk mom and it makes him look like the cuddly schlub we're used to. So blame marketing for tailoring the film every which way to reach the widest audience. They look pretty desperate with this one. Obviously, this particular trailer isn't meant to appeal to most women.
No one is saying that drinking at all means you can't consent. Vomiting and passing out drunk isn't at all the same as dancing on tables drunk. If someone is stumbling and vomiting, they probably aren't able to give consent. If they are so fucked up that they pass out, they definately can't consent. The default setting isn't yes.
Of course there can be comedies about terrible people, the issue is whether or not the movie is a commentary on what shitty people they are. If Seth Rogan's interview had been about what a psycho he was playing, the rape aspect would bother me far less. But to say that a mostly unconscious woman encouraging him makes it okay is fucked up.
clevernamehere
@HanaMaru: Also, for me at least, it's the fact that some fucker picks you out of every other person to do this to...which personally makes me wonder what it is about me that would make me seem like an appropriate victim, you know?
And just for giggles April is sexual assault awareness month. Here's the link for everyone's AWAREness.
[www.rainn.org]
doggotmyshoes
@Gena Radcliffe: I don't think the argument is that this movie will promote individuals to rape. I think the argument is that it contributes to the culture that says rape, and especially date rape, is okay, which establishes and reinforces a certain mentality that is behind how horribly rape victims are treated. Thanks to this movie and tons of other media and jokes and various other problems, when a woman experiences something like what happens in this clip, she is accused of overreacting, lying, backpedaling, etc. because it is made to seem okay.
Eriu
@ArtfulSlinger: I don't know if I actually agree that you have to experience something first before you can criticize it. I have never eaten my own feces but I can be pretty sure I don't want to and that it wouldn't be a pleasant experience.
@HanaMaru: ALL of what you said was wonderfully put, but especially THIS: "All of this is at work when a man flashes women. It's a display of power, like showing that he has a weapon that he may or may not choose to use on you."
Thank-you!
margareita metermaid
@allyzay: Thank you. What I got from the trailers is that he's supposed to be a despicable guy. And I don't think we're supposed to be 'ok' with what he did.
@MyNameIsChris: I would comment, but you guys took all my words.
@LAkebandit: this completely sums up how I feel. where did the seth of yore go?
@vamvaki_poulaki: And right on the mark.
@lindsayweir: Ana Faris is a great dramatic actress, it's her choices of comedic roles that seem to veer towards the sexist. And sexism aint funny.
@mharker: Eastbound and Down is a GREAT show. Methinks you missed the fact that the main character is supposed to be an evil prick.
@IceCreamIsAwesome: I'm going to save judgment 'til I see the movie, but yeah, it looks dark, and I'm pretty sure Rogen's character is supposed to be a complete and utter failure (the kind of guy who'd date rape a girl - though Faris's character is also supposed to be a megabitch, so I fear there'll be a little aura of 'See? She wanted it!').
You can just sense from the G-rated trailers that they're trying to fit a weird, creepy movie into an Apatow mold, and it's not working. Seeing those and then this is sure to offend, in part because most commenters have yet to see the movie.
I just can't figure out why the hell they didn't go with Danny McBride - the role was obviously meant for him.
HeatherNumber1
@drinkthefat: Seriously, if it was a personal joke he should have kept it that way.
Laura Enriquez
@clevernamehere: Are we really sure that line wasn't said sarcastically? From what I can gather, we are not supposed to like the guy, but we're still supposed to find something somewhat redeemable in him (like Eastbound and Down), so maybe Rogen said that in jest?
I dunno. I just think a lot of those quotes can be read that way. I've seen him in interviews before, and he constantly does this self-deprecating, I have no morals joke about himself.
Has anyone seen the TV spots that are EXACTLY like the ones for Paul Blart, where all the characters are saying 'Ronnie'? They're hilarious because you just know a bunch of 10 year olds are going to get to see this.
HeatherNumber1
::sigh::
That quote at the end of this made my day. Fuck ya! I am not the only person who feels this way! Glory hallelujah!
Erinthebitch
Is Jody Hill a frat boy? There are definite whiffs of frat boy in this "comedy."
@leadbelly666: Cute.
No, it was filmed in New Mexico, where Bad Films Go Because It's Cheap.
@resonanteye: No one is saying having a drink equals unable to consent. But throwing up and passing out is too drunk to give consent.
@allyzay: Seriously? You are really setting the bar for men awfully low if you don't think projectial vomiting and passing out aren't reasons to say someone is unable to consent. Men aren't rutting animals with no control over themselves.
clevernamehere
@ArtfulSlinger: We need to fucking bust-up that frat boy "comedy" kegger they've got going on in Hollywood.
@Mireillepa the Rappa: Yeah...I was always bothered by this one. It shows that our culture constricts men as well...
@honeydeeew: Oh c'mon! They're for babies to come out of, too.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Come on. What I was saying is that we are all jumping to conclusions about this movie as a hole from our assumption that Rogen would play the lovable oaf one more time, a 30 second clip of Faris and him, and interviews. And then there was at least 60 comments yelling about how disgusting this was, that Rogen is horrible for doing this, etc.
Its happened on this site before that everyone goes into hysterics about a 30 second clip of something when most of the people angered have never seen the actual footage. It makes us all look like people just chomping at the bits to get flustered. The main argument most women, especially those who would prefer not to see a scene like the "date-rape" scene is that if it wasn't for some early reviews, they would never know it was in there. And thats a continuing issue with the advertisers and editors who put together these trailers. Not Seth Rogen.
and we wonder why guys think women don't have a sense of humor...
What I found disconcerting about the date rape joke is what Seth Rogen thinks makes it all okay. The setup makes you think 'OMFG he's date-raping her, how can that be funny?' Then she says, 'Why are you stopping, motherfucker?' and that supposedly releases the tension because, (psych!), she actually consented. There's no release unless you assume that she could consent, otherwise it's just rape and not redeemed by humor.
SeriesofTubes
@allyzay: We're not supposed to like the character or approve of his behavior. That said, this particular rape joke only works if the viewer has some really ugly assumptions about what rape is. As the NYT explains, you're supposed to be horrified by the rape and anxious about how they could possibly make it funny, the comic release is supposed to happen when the girl says "Why are you stopping, motherfucker?" Because then it turns out not to be a rape scene after all. It's not funny unless you assume that she did consent all along. The payoff is rapist wish fulfillment. She really wanted all along, even though she seemed catatonic. Whew! Dodged that bullet.
SeriesofTubes
The fact that it's a generally black comedy doesn't affect my argument. Lots of the scenes in the trailer seem dark and funny, like the paramilitary training or the bit where he makes a transparently false accusation that the Indian guy is the flasher. Violence and racism are dark, and those bits embrace the pathos.
The problem with the rape joke is that it actually lightens the mood by switching to a drunk sex joke at the last possible minute.
SeriesofTubes
DATE RAPE.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
cos she's drunk and she kinda deserved it
get it?
@thatsrealbutter: I just can't take flashing seriously, just because the one time it happened to me, I was so stoned it took a while to sink in. And then I had the following convo:
"Dude... seriously? Why would you want to show that to people? It's so small!"
Then I wandered off, noshing on my can of Pringles. Ah, to be young and stupid again.
In conclusion, I find flashers more objects of pity than threatening, but that's just me.
Ionic
@James Stoicheff: Um, Titus Andronicus is a revenge tragedy. It's not a comedy, even in the Shakespearean sense. It's intentionally horrifyingly traumatic.
Cerridwen
@grrl: I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think women's bodies are open for business unless they say no. And every person is different. Throwing up for me actually comes before I would say I am unable to make rational decisions, but after I am having trouble walking and speaking. Honestly, how many hook ups in college would be considered "rape" if no one could be said to give consent after vomiting or tripping over ones tongues or feet. Shit, at that point, men and women would be mutually raping each other all the time.
@David Stewart: I'm not a "dude."
OwenKlient
@OwenKlient: You seem to be all over the place here and I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish or what point you're trying to make. You asked a broad question and I gave a simple response. If you are in any way doubtful of your partner's ability to actually consent, or their judgment seems to be impaired, then don't have sex. ESPECIALLY if it's some casual hookup, where you don't know someone well enough to accurately read them.
It's like lots of other things in life: if you have to ask if it's appropriate, then it's probably not. Because if it were, the question wouldn't even come to mind.
Maybe the reason the rest of us don't agree that "at that point, men and women would be mutually raping each other all the time" is because we're like, adults. And actually have self-respect, maturity and an interest in a mutual experience. And don't try to paint the situation with some kind of extremism that ignores all basic common sense.
grrl
@katyarizhaya: Honestly, I seriously disagree. They weren't trying to get someone so drunk they wouldn't be able to consent. They were simply hoping that, by drinking, they would sleep with them. Willingly. Because drinking does lower inhibitions.
They were talking about the habit of many teens and grown ups, which is to get drunk and have sex. Again, willingly, Not unwilling. Not without consent. Maybe they'd wish they hadn't the next day, but that's not the same. How many people have gone out, gotten drunk, brought someone home, consented and had sex, and the next day maybe wished they hadn't? That's regret, not rape.
So, no, I really don't see it as either advocating or attempting to date rape.
tiredfairy
@katyarizhaya: Also, it's clear in the film that Hill's character is A. a jerk and B. full of it. He doesn't really want any of the things he says. He's insecure and afraid and does, in fact, care about the girl he's interested in.
Look, I'm not saying that there isn't a good point about the misconceptions about drinking and consent. There definitely are. But the plot isn't advocating date rape.
tiredfairy
@KatrinaBullfinch: It doesn't cancel it out, and they weren't wanting/planning date rape. They were being stupid teenagers who were hoping that, by drinking and getting drunk WITH the girls they like, they'll get laid. They weren't talking about forcing someone to have sex who didn't want to. They were talking about having sex with people who DID want to, because by drinking, had lowered inhibitions. I think it's dangerous to suggest that any amount of drinking means that any sex that takes place is rape.
And I think it's extremely relevant that neither character sleeps with the girl, because they both realize that it's wrong to do that. Cera's character actively, while drunk even, stops the situations. How is that not relevant? It's a narrative/character arc. They start off in one way, end up in another. And learn something important. That's, you know, the point of a plot.
tiredfairy
@grrl: Actually, I'm not all over the place. I *agree* with your criterion-- if someone is unsure about someone's ability to consent, then they shouldn't have sex with them. But several people pointed to the character's stumbling and vomiting as signs that she's unable to consent which isn't necessarily at issue.
When Seth Rogan realized that she was unresponsive, he *stopped* to see if she was okay and only continued when she complained. So, I think this falls short of date rape.
OwenKlient
@Scoithniamh:
also seth is young and has been in Hollywood since his teens. What is his concept of the real world? I feel like a lot of the Dude humor is immature to begin with. Enough already.
@clevernamehere:
but it's EDGY! Therefore hip.
@tiredfairy: Seriously, THANK YOU for all this. You got your points across much more clearly than I could've ever managed. I have a great affection for Superbad, and I get flack all the time from a friend who refuses to watch it because they think it's relentlessly woman-hating. And no doubt that there are some problematic beliefs expressed, but the movie isn't condoning every single thought by Jonah Hill's character. And the distinction between drinking to lower inhibitions and drinking with the intent to date rape is also VERY important. Thanks again.
@LAkebandit: Yeah, my love for both Seth Rogen and Anna Faris just died. Sigh. Every day I realize why I should completely avoid reading quotations from the actors.
I'm with Sady on this one. That scene is waaay too close for comfort, without getting into specifics.
sparklylegwarmers
This movie (from what I have seen in this clip) is the worse piece of trash out there, it's disjusting to the tenth degree and that's being nice on the rating scale. Making jokes about "flashing" "date rape" "one hundred stereotypes" about sexual discrimination against women. How do we stop this piece of filth from hitting the screens? Are men going to take their girlfriends to see this toilet papered type of humor? I hope not. Who directed this and who wrote the screenplay? WHoever it was should be shot, or answer on judgement day. I vote this as the worst movie of the year, don't bother showing anymore film clips, you have won the prize all alone. The problem with this type of movie is that it will show and go directly to the DVD market.
George Kyricos Stamas
Watch this trailer to this movei and then tell me "rape" is supposed to be funny.
+ Watch video
George Kyricos Stamas
@OwenKlient: Well you are using a male name AND you were talking incredibly stupid adolescent shit . .
So anyone would make the same mistake
David Stewart
@IceCreamIsAwesome: Nothing I saw in the trailer would make this seem like one of those "HI-larious" comedies- or really even much of a comedy. If they are playing for uncomfortable vague laughs about two dysfunctional people, then ok I see that.
I'll never get over the rape scene in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (of all movies!) being played for laughs. That was a shock and I saw that movie when I was young.
@MizJenkins: One of my friends finally just stopped calling me either "Fook-me" or "Fook-you" (from Austin Powers).
"Up and coming" film minorities? I feel your annoyance.
What I'm actually disgusted by right now is the frequency in which the word is being used. People saying "that song raped my ears". "That movie will rape my childhood." etc. I can't stand seeing that, it's become part of popular lexicon now. It is in a lot of the Kotaku commenters posts as well. It is, of course, always said by men as well which isn't helping to alleviate my concerns that men are making a joke out of a serious issue.
I've heard people I talk to say it and I just cringe. If only they were made aware of how offensive saying such a thing is. Unfortunately their small minded male brain can't comprehend that fact.
@Gemi: Thank you, really. I was worried that I was sounding like some kind of rape apologist which I'm really not. I don't believe consent is a gray area at all. Which is actually why I feel so strongly about this and mislabeling this film's intent. I think teenagers in particular need much more consistent, clear, messages about drinking and sex and consent.
If the movie had made any kind of statement that suggested that it was okay to get a girl so drunk she specifically couldn't consent, I'd be all over it. But it truly doesn't. It talks about consensual sex with drinking involved. Not forced sex. Not coerced sex. Not so drunk you're unconcious, or don't know what you're doing. And, in fact, both situations of both characters deal with that. Cera's character, while drunk himself, stops the sexual activities because he realizes this really isn't the way to do this. And Hill's character, conversely, is turned down by the sober girl, even though he could have been easily persuaded to do pretty much anything because he was falling down drunk. It's made very clear that this just isn't something that anyone should be doing.
I mean, I do think there's a valid talking point about how teenagers (and people, really) equate drinking and sex. And how way too many people blur the consent issue when drinking is involved. But I just don't think Superbad does that. And it's a pretty huge distinction.
tiredfairy
@RisaPlata: This is why I never could get it too. If is is used as a weapon or happens to a bad person it's funny?
Chundara
Worst...Film...Ever.
Mark Andresen
Wow, everyone is freaking out without having seen the movie. Way to stir up controversy. the so called "rape scene" is not that at all but a play on the audiences expectations to actually see that. If anyone who wrote this article or anyone who responded had SEEN the movie they would understand that. Or maybe not because movie goers today don't typically bother to think about what they have just seen. the cut reveals them in bed, her humping away. We as an audience are repelled because we think it is date rape. Then Rogen's character realizes she is passed out and stops. This is the important detail EVERYONE keeps conveniently missing. He is clearly NOT raping her and they clearly started when she was conscious. then she says her line telling him to keep going. There are all kinds of character dynamics going on here from the previous two scenes that no one is discussing because they don't fit the "rape panic" that is being latched onto by the media. You people are freaking out over something that isn't even there.
Andrew Copp
@Cimorene: Yes! Remember the 1st Austin Powers, where Vanessa tries to kiss him after a few glasses of wine? He refuses, saying "you're drunk, and it wouldn't be right." That scene showed that even gross, horny men need to be decent when it comes to consent. (And in that case, I think it would have been okay if they maybe kissed a little bit, but it's nice that they erred on the side of caution.)
seastar86
I dunno, it seemed like he expected her to be awake. I didn't find it all that offensive... I mean, no more offensive than the rest of it.
jmsmith76